“Christianized” mysticism

[Me Myself]

Where? So what kind of 'meditation' are we talking about in here?

But then, I will not push any further since I know that your beliefs are....... I'll stop right there *seals fingers, prevents from keyboard typing*

Yu dont have to debate if you dont want to debate

Where what? In the bible.

Have you not read the passage in which Jesus says that which gives good fruits is good?

About wch kind of meditation: all kinds of meditations that make you more compassionate, peaceful and happy.

Like sitting still and focusing on your breath for 15 minutes.

 

[Renji]

Yu dont have to debate if you dont want to debate

Let's just say that, I don't want to be in something that doesn't make any uhm nvm.

Where what? In the bible.

So WHERE in the bible?

Have you not read the passage in which Jesus says that which gives good fruits is good?

Yes I did, but where can you read about this:

About wch kind of meditation: all kinds of meditations that make you more compassionate, peaceful and happy.

Like sitting still and focusing on your breath for 15 minutes.

 

[Me Myself]

Let's just say that, I don't want to be in something that doesn't make any uhm nvm.



So WHERE in the bible?



Yes I did, but where can you read about this:

Told you already, in the part about the fruits.

It says that if it bears good fruits, its good.


If something helps you be a better person and Jesus tells you be a better person, then said something is coherent with Jesus message.

 

[Renji]

Told you already, in the part about the fruits.

I see nothing about breathing exercise and stuff (which I don't totally oppose anyway).

It says that if it bears good fruits, its good.


If something helps you be a better person and Jesus tells you be a better person, then said something is coherent with Jesus message.

So being a 'better' (or good) person is the message of Jesus? And that's it?

 

[Me Myself]

I see nothing about breathing exercise and stuff (which I don't totally oppose anyway).



So being a 'better' (or good) person is the message of Jesus? And that's it?

It says one should try to be more forgiving, compassionate, humble, peaceful generous.

All of this things come from breathing techniques. So while it doesnt say it specifically, it still clearly supports it, as this techniques support the changes in behaviour that Jesus encouraged.

So it doesnt say "you should sit in silence for 15 minutes" anymore than it says "if someone asks you to ride him somewhere and its a friend, it would be very christian like to do so". Then again, we know that Jesus said what we do to others we do to him, so we can take the general teaching to specific circumstances in our lifes.

Meditation is just that. Its a technique to be a better person, and Jesus wanted that from us.

Yes, I think that sums up his message.

 

[InChrist]

It says one should try to be more forgiving, compassionate, humble, peaceful generous.

All of this things come from breathing techniques. So while it doesnt say it specifically, it still clearly supports it, as this techniques support the changes in behaviour that Jesus encouraged.

So it doesnt say "you should sit in silence for 15 minutes" anymore than it says "if someone asks you to ride him somewhere and its a friend, it would be very christian like to do so". Then again, we know that Jesus said what we do to others we do to him, so we can take the general teaching to specific circumstances in our lifes.

Meditation is just that. Its a technique to be a better person, and Jesus wanted that from us.

Yes, I think that sums up his message.

As sinful humans all fall short of God's definition of goodness (Romans 3:23). There is no technique, breathing or otherwise which can change our sinful condition and makes us better or good...except being saved by Christ. Jesus came to be the Savior (Luke 2:11;1 Timothy 1:15) If there were other methods of permanent self-improvement there would be no need for a Savior.The message of the scriptures is the opposite of what you are saying. According to the God;s Word only Christ can fix us and give us a new heart that is forgiving, peaceful, humble, compassionate, loving, etc.

 

[Me Myself]

As sinful humans all fall short of God's definition of goodness (Romans 3:23). There is no technique, breathing or otherwise which can change our sinful condition and makes us better or good...except being saved by Christ. Jesus came to be the Savior (Luke 2:11;1 Timothy 1:15) If there were other methods of permanent self-improvement there would be no need for a Savior.The message of the scriptures is the opposite of what you are saying. According to the God;s Word only Christ can fix us and give us a new heart that is forgiving, peaceful, humble, compassionate, loving, etc.

But we can strive to be better and act more compassionately. The techniques help us become more compassionate , humble, peacefull and generous.

If you say there are no ways of being a better person besides saying "Lord Lord" then you are either pretending Jesus didnt ask us to aqcuire the qualities that meditation give us, or you are denying meditation gives us this qualities.

I can certainly link you to studies that conclusively find many techniques that give us this qualities, and I hope you wont deny that Jesus wanted us to be more generous, humble, spread peace, be joyfull, be kind, meek , loving, slow in anger.

Also, many people were found righteous in the eyes of the Lord according to the bible. Noah and Enoch are just some examples.

 

[Me Myself]

Seriously, you are supposed to try to be a better person. I doubt Jesus would encourage you to just quit man :/

 

[Windwalker]

Just to comment to this interesting last bit of discussion going on here, where in the Bible does it say you should build a church with a steeple? Where in the Bible does it actually tell you how to organize or perform any church liturgy at all? In fact, there are very few instructions of any kind in how to perform any sort of ritual or practice, unless you go back to the OT where it gives details on how to do lots of rites and rituals. In the NT? No.

So "where does it say to do breathing exercises"? It doesn't. It doesn't say a lot of things that you do, and yet you do them because it brings you closer to God. Right? So why this question about meditation practices? To me, that is just someone's fear of the unknown and trying to brand or label it as "suspicious", and then hiding behind a "where's that in the Bible" question. The logic doesn't hold.

By their fruits you shall know them. No one has addressed, or can actually answer that in light of the claim, and evidence, of the fact that meditation practices (regardless of what form they take), do in fact make people more loving, compassionate, grounded in Spirit, bearing fruit in their lives, than they were able to prior to such practices. "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". And to say mediation is opening yourself to the devil (that is ignorance), when the fact is people's live dramatically, drastically improve through such practices, is tantamount to the Pharisees, the ultra-righteous scripture believer's accusation of Jesus that he casts out demons by the devil. Jesus said in response, "A house divided against itself cannot stand".


Now as far as saying Christian mysticism is different than Eastern mysticism, that sound like propaganda. Eastern mysticism is not one thing. There are many forms and many practices and many techniques, from yoga, to emptying the mind, to chanting, to drumming to dancing, to pondering scriptures, etc. The point is, all of them take one into communion with the divine, and Christian mysticism does the same thing. And that to me, is all good.

It's not how you believe, or how you worship God, or what rite you perform, or how you meditated, but how you produce fruit that can only come through communion with God. By their fruits you shall know them, not by their practices. The Pharisees were concerned with such things, and Jesus said to them "You strain at gnats, while you swallow a camel".

 

[Windwalker]

My feelings concerning the story you posted and that of Windwalker is that when it comes to something as important as one’s eternal destiny...truth is more important than feelings.

Excuse me, but do you not see the inherent contradiction in your statement here? You say "My feelings" concern my story, is that "Truth is more important that feelings". So then your feelings here are not to be trusted either, just as mine aren't. Do you not see the short-circuit here?

I get that you don't trust your own feelings and need some external authority to trust, since you apparently need that. But don't then say that all others are incapable of having solid, clear, and important feelings that should and can in fact be trusted. What I said about what caused anguish for me, was the fact that the Spirit of God in my heart could not be reconciled with what I was being told from outside myself I should, or rather NEEDED to believe. I knew that voice in my heart, but I was being told and taught not to trust it, effectively suppressing Spirit. And that was done in the name of Bible Truth. It was not Bible truth, but someones interpretation of the Bible claimed to be God's word.

Anything that the Spirit, inside, subjectively, is grieved by, is your only witness you can and should trust. It is marvelously simple to twist the Bible to say whatever suits your own thoughts and lusts. But the voice of Spirit is clear. And the way to know it. The way to hear it. It not with the head, "lean not to your own understanding", but with the heart, to fall into that trust. It is resting spirit in Spirit. And that - that - is subjective.

Meditation takes you into the Subjective.

 

[Shiranui117]

Just to comment to this interesting last bit of discussion going on here, where in the Bible does it say you should build a church with a steeple? Where in the Bible does it actually tell you how to organize or perform any church liturgy at all? In fact, there are very few instructions of any kind in how to perform any sort of ritual or practice, unless you go back to the OT where it gives details on how to do lots of rites and rituals. In the NT? No.

The fact that Christians had a liturgical form of worship is widely attested to; the Didache, for example, lists with detail how baptism is to be performed, and how the Eucharist is to be celebrated. There were no churches in the beginning, because Christians 1: could not afford them, and 2: had to worship in secret so as not to be found out by the authorities and exterminated.

By their fruits you shall know them. No one has addressed, or can actually answer that in light of the claim, and evidence, of the fact that meditation practices (regardless of what form they take), do in fact make people more loving, compassionate, grounded in Spirit, bearing fruit in their lives, than they were able to prior to such practices. "An evil tree cannot bear good fruit". And to say mediation is opening yourself to the devil (that is ignorance), when the fact is people's live dramatically, drastically improve through such practices, is tantamount to the Pharisees, the ultra-righteous scripture believer's accusation of Jesus that he casts out demons by the devil. Jesus said in response, "A house divided against itself cannot stand".

Meditation is fine in Christian mysticism--if it is focused on allowing Christ and the Holy Spirit to fill our being, if it is focused on growing closer to God. The aim of meditation will affect the fruits as well.

Now as far as saying Christian mysticism is different than Eastern mysticism, that sound like propaganda. Eastern mysticism is not one thing. There are many forms and many practices and many techniques, from yoga, to emptying the mind, to chanting, to drumming to dancing, to pondering scriptures, etc. The point is, all of them take one into communion with the divine, and Christian mysticism does the same thing. And that to me, is all good.

Not in the case of Buddhism. In Buddhism, it's more about emptying the mind and achieving nirvana. You cannot say that Eastern mysticism is one thing, and then turn around and say that they all have the same point.

It's not how you believe, or how you worship God, or what rite you perform, or how you meditated, but how you produce fruit that can only come through communion with God. By their fruits you shall know them, not by their practices. The Pharisees were concerned with such things, and Jesus said to them "You strain at gnats, while you swallow a camel".

I would agree; the fruits are of the Spirit--not of our own efforts.

 

[Vouthon]

Not in the case of Buddhism. In Buddhism, it's more about emptying the mind and achieving nirvana.

Just one small correction there brother :bow: People often think that Buddhism is about 'emptying the mind' but this isn't actually true.

Buddhists do not seek to empty the mind so much as learn to be more attentive to it. The religion teaches one how to develop the necessary skills to observe and direct the mind, calmly and without attachment. Great concentration is involved in this. Plus, while they do not believe in a creator deity, they aim for liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth which leads to nirvana which is an unconditioned, incomprehensible state usually described with recourse to negation (what it isn't). The via negativa tradition in Christianity is somewhat parallel to this.

No one can empty the mind. One will always have logismoi (distracting thoughts, to use the Orthodox lingo) and Buddhism recognises this. The trick is the ability to be able to see one's thoughts for what they really are empty of a lasting reality, distractions that if not seen in their proper light only lead to more suffering.

In Buddhism one does not empty the mind of thoughts, one recognises thoughts as being empty, fleeting flickers of consciousness that come and go.

Eventually the goal of meditation is to recognise that all conditioned things are as empty as thoughts - that is ephemeral, fleeting, changeable without any lasting reality. Even the self is eventually found (in Buddhism) to be a fleeting aggregate of different components such as feeling, thinking, emotions rather than a 'thing' of lasting, true value.

I agree with everything else, pretty much, that you said though ie always remembering the Christ-o-centric and (I would add) Trinitarian focus/goal of Christian contemplation.

 

[Windwalker]

Just one small correction there brother :bow: People often think that Buddhism is about 'emptying the mind' but this isn't actually true.

Buddhists do not seek to empty the mind so much as learn to be more attentive to it. The religion teaches one how to develop the necessary skills to observe and direct the mind, calmly and without attachment. Great concentration is involved in this. Plus, while they do not believe in a creator deity, they aim for liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth which leads to nirvana which is an unconditioned, incomprehensible state usually described with recourse to negation (what it isn't). The via negativa tradition in Christianity is somewhat parallel to this.

Thank you! Yes, I find that a lot of the rejection or meditation or mystical practices are based upon outstanding misunderstandings of what they are. This "emptying the mind" is one of them. The other that I had been taught in my fundamentalist youth is that meditation was the same as "self-hypnosis" (which is false), and that you fall into "suggestible" states in which demons will fill you with lies. I've heard this travesty of a teaching repeated by others yet today.

There are marked differences in what is going on in the mind in meditation versus someone under hypnosis. You are not in a suggestible state in meditation at all. You are very aware. You are not in a trance or some other such thing. It is in fact more aware, and more controlled than your average "normal" waking mind is. In fact the typical report of meditators is that you actually awaken to the fact that you were asleep in your "normal" thoughts. You awaken, not go into some mindless vacuum.

No one can empty the mind. One will always have logismoi (distracting thoughts, to use the Orthodox lingo) and Buddhism recognises this. The trick is the ability to be able to see one's thoughts for what they really are empty of a lasting reality, distractions that if not seen in their proper light only lead to more suffering.

In Buddhism one does not empty the mind of thoughts, one recognises thoughts as being empty, fleeting flickers of consciousness that come and go.

As I said, you awaken to the fact that what you believed was the way of things, is actually far more subtle a truth. Why else does the Bible say the Holy Spirit will reveal things to you? How does this happen if you are stuck in, and only relying upon your normal perceptual mind? You have to "allow" that to happen. You participate in that process. You learn how. And that is what meditation is a practice. It trains you to be receptive that way.

Eventually the goal of meditation is to recognise that all conditioned things are as empty as thoughts - that is ephemeral, fleeting, changeable without any lasting reality. Even the self is eventually found (in Buddhism) to be a fleeting aggregate of different components such as feeling, thinking, emotions rather than a 'thing' of lasting, true value.

I agree with everything else, pretty much, that you said though ie always remembering the Christ-o-centric and (I would add) Trinitarian focus/goal of Christian contemplation.

If you really wish to draw comparisons between meditation on Christ and the Trinity, this follows with Tibetan Buddhism, and Hinduism as well in the visualization of the ishta-deva. Focus upon the deity form evokes and identification with that form, which in turn moves one from their lesser ego into union with the divine. This union, is definitely in Christian mysticism. It is the purpose of mystical experience.

 

[Windwalker]

In regards to this Meditation versus Hypnosis speculation of many, I wish to offer this presentation and explanation of the actual research done in this area, comparing the two. It lists the history, and misunderstanding of meditation in the West that I believe results in the type of misinformation I was presented with in my youth, which I referred to, and which I am hearing echoed in this thread.

The two basic types of mediation are concentrative (focusing on a single point, see page 12 in the paper), and Insight (defocusing to be open to what arises in a quited mind, see page 14). You can read about the differences between meditation and hypnosis in the chart provided on pages 17, 21-22. http://bscw.rediris.es/pub/bscw.cgi/d4512707/Tart-Meditation_Some_kind_self_hypnosis.pdf

 

[Windwalker]

The fact that Christians had a liturgical form of worship is widely attested to; the Didache, for example, lists with detail how baptism is to be performed, and how the Eucharist is to be celebrated. There were no churches in the beginning, because Christians 1: could not afford them, and 2: had to worship in secret so as not to be found out by the authorities and exterminated.

Which of course attests to my point. The question was asked where breathing exercises are in the Bible, to which I said neither is any of the liturgies. These are things people developed later on as part of their practices. It doesn't negate them because they are not specified in the Bible.

To me, the practices either support, or don't support good, fruitful, spiritual practice. Meditation does.

Meditation is fine in Christian mysticism--if it is focused on allowing Christ and the Holy Spirit to fill our being, if it is focused on growing closer to God. The aim of meditation will affect the fruits as well.

Yep.

In fact, the fruits of the spirit, must come from.... here it is... drum roll..... the spirit. How can that be if you are not in communion with the Spirit, if you are not filled by that in your mind and body? It's not just some magical, thing that gets added to you. You have to allow it. That allowing, requires specific intent and practice.

Not in the case of Buddhism. In Buddhism, it's more about emptying the mind and achieving nirvana. You cannot say that Eastern mysticism is one thing, and then turn around and say that they all have the same point.

Yes I can. God is God is God is God. If someone access that Source of Compassion, divine Compassion, and it flows through their life.... well, "By their fruits you shall know them". Not by if they followed this rite, or that liturgy, or that teaching, or that practice. However you are able to allow Spirit, is the Way. There is no other Way. It is not by our own efforts in ourselves. It is in allowing God.

I would agree; the fruits are of the Spirit--not of our own efforts.

Agreed. But what is important to realize that through our will, we allow. And when we, through practice are able to be that in the body, then we are truly 'sons of God'. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons [and daughters] of God". My will is the divine will, is that sacred marriage. Union with God. That, is the intent of mystical practice. Union.

 

[Vouthon]

Which of course attests to my point. The question was asked where breathing exercises are in the Bible, to which I said neither is any of the liturgies. These are things people developed later on as part of their practices. It doesn't negate them because they are not specified in the Bible.

That is an excellent point IMHO. Focus on the breath has an interesting history in Christianity. The earliest possible indication of it is from St. John Climacus when he notes in his Ladder of Divine Ascent (a classic btw of Eastern mysticism) "Let the remembrance of Jesus be present with each breath, and then you will know the value of hesychia (stillness)". Some scholars consider this to be purely metaphorical whereas others believe it suggests use of a breathing technique even in the sixth century AD. Next we have various Coptic sources from the 7th-9th centuries where some kind of breathing technique is most definitely being suggested.

And then in the 12th-13th centuries there is an explosion in the Eastern Orthodox Hesychast tradition with the monks of Mt. Athos using orally passed down breathing techniques attested to later in writing by St. Nicephorus the Solitary, St Hesychios and St. Gregory Palamas among others.

It seems that breath control techniques had been passed down orally in the monasteries of the East for centuries.

In the West there is comparatively little usage of breath technique until, seemingly out of the blue, St. Ignatius of Loyola suggests a completely unique breath control technique in his Exercises in the 16th century. The West had placed less emphasis on technique and when it did, as with the Cloud of Unknowing, focus on a short word or phrase or even simply the Name of Jesus alone (as in the Eastern Jesus Prayer) was generally preferred.

 

[Me Myself]

Its also important to point out that proper meditation technique practiced regularly makes you much less prone to being easily suggestible by hypnosis or other forms of altered mind states.

You know yourself better, and are much harder to surprise.

 

[SageTree]

Most excellent post, Friend.

:namaste

I agree with your likening to the apophatic tradition and speaking to how distracting thoughts are viewed.

Just one small correction there brother :bow: People often think that Buddhism is about 'emptying the mind' but this isn't actually true.

Buddhists do not seek to empty the mind so much as learn to be more attentive to it. The religion teaches one how to develop the necessary skills to observe and direct the mind, calmly and without attachment. Great concentration is involved in this. Plus, while they do not believe in a creator deity, they aim for liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth which leads to nirvana which is an unconditioned, incomprehensible state usually described with recourse to negation (what it isn't). The via negativa tradition in Christianity is somewhat parallel to this.

No one can empty the mind. One will always have logismoi (distracting thoughts, to use the Orthodox lingo) and Buddhism recognises this. The trick is the ability to be able to see one's thoughts for what they really are empty of a lasting reality, distractions that if not seen in their proper light only lead to more suffering.

In Buddhism one does not empty the mind of thoughts, one recognises thoughts as being empty, fleeting flickers of consciousness that come and go.

Eventually the goal of meditation is to recognise that all conditioned things are as empty as thoughts - that is ephemeral, fleeting, changeable without any lasting reality. Even the self is eventually found (in Buddhism) to be a fleeting aggregate of different components such as feeling, thinking, emotions rather than a 'thing' of lasting, true value.

I agree with everything else, pretty much, that you said though ie always remembering the Christ-o-centric and (I would add) Trinitarian focus/goal of Christian contemplation.

 

[Windwalker]

Its also important to point out that proper meditation technique practiced regularly makes you much less prone to being easily suggestible by hypnosis or other forms of altered mind states.

Personally, I'm rather self-guided. It comes naturally to me. Techniques that are taught, are first discovered. It really is what is working, and that can change from one day to the next. To rely on only one tool, is not the best approach to a fruitful practice, IMHO.

As far as being prone to "suggestibility", I did offer a link to an article that goes into the comparison between meditation and hypnosis. Suggestibility is not part of meditation (which various stages of altered states of consciousness). The only caveat I would add is that for some people, those who have psychological disorders, they should not practice meditation alone, but with another who knows what they are doing, or not at all. You do need to have a relatively stable psyche because you will in fact confront deep truths about yourself you may not know how to processes.

Anytime one meets God, "that which is hidden will be come to light". And that, I believe, is why people are in fact so resistant to meditation. You are quite literally, entering into that Light. You need to be prepared to be laid naked and bare before God and to yourself. That is terrifying to most people. Each stage, each castle as Theresa called them, you must purify yourself, until at last all is exposed, you die to yourself, and you are raised up.

That is mysticism. Not just some belief about something up there are out there. It's right here, and you meet it "Face to Face".

You know yourself better, and are much harder to surprise.

Well, that is part of that "taking off your clothes" metaphor. It's all the masks we wear and look at that we hide ourselves from ourselves. It is a truer knowledge. You are surprised at first, as you should be. Then you "know yourself even as you are known."

 

[Me Myself]

I do find it sad. So little trust you have on God that you think sitting for fifteen minutes in peace and deatachment to better know the beautiful body and mind he gave to you will make you the target of demon attacks.

Like seriously, have some faith. God made you in his semblance, yet you pretend to be so weak you cant enjoy your own breath in peace.