‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[Ashoka]

You're not reading the same Bible, or not understanding it, for sure!

I am talking about the sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" by Johnathan Edwards.

 

[KWED]

God has to be complete in the Universe and that's impossible without creating evil aspects to it as well as good...

So god is bound by forces beyond him?
There are things that he must do, or that have to happen, regardless of his own will or desire?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So god is bound by forces beyond him?
There are things that he must do, or that have to happen, regardless of his own will or desire?

If one suggests that logic is not part of the cosmos, then everything becomes incoherent.
To suggest that G-d could have created an incoherent universe is meaningless.

 

[KWED]

If one suggests that logic is not part of the cosmos, then everything becomes incoherent.
To suggest that G-d could have created an incoherent universe is meaningless.

The universe of the Abrahamic god is incoherent, but that is not the issue here.
Robocop claimed that god could not create a universe where evil does not exist. It is not logically incoherent for a universe without evil to exist.
So, if god cannot do something that is logically coherent, then god is constrained by a power greater than him. QED.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is not logically incoherent for a universe without evil to exist..

I agree with you that it isn't.

However, arguing that G-d can create a soul that thinks independently, but also cannot disobey Him makes no logical sense to me.

 

[KWED]

I agree with you that it isn't.

So you agree that there is no need for evil to exist. The universe would work just fine without it. It only exists because god wants it to exist.

However, arguing that G-d can create a soul that thinks independently, but also cannot disobey Him makes no logical sense to me.

I have never made that claim.
However, as the outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree, it seems that people cannot "think independently". It certainly makes no logical sense for god (or the law) to punish people for things that were beyond their control.

 

[ppp]

I agree with you that it isn't.

However, arguing that G-d can create a soul that thinks independently, but also cannot disobey Him makes no logical sense to me.

There are plenty of things that you can think about doing, yet are utterly unable to act upon those thoughts. Even so, you still consider yourself an independent thinker? Adding disobedience to that list of constraints would not abridge that independence.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So god is bound by forces beyond him?
There are things that he must do, or that have to happen, regardless of his own will or desire?

Some definitions of God have requirements.

 

[muhammad_isa]

However, as the outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree, it seems that people cannot "think independently". It certainly makes no logical sense for god (or the law) to punish people for things that were beyond their control.

Don't start that nonsense again .. it's that trick of confusing the issue due to human perception of time.

Allah's decree is an expression that implies "G-d made it happen".
..just like the implication of "predestined".

It's a false impression, quite obviously. One can't be deciding independently, if G-d is deciding for them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Adding disobedience to that list of constraints would not abridge that independence.

It is quite obvious to me that you can't make an independent decision if you are constrained by another's.
Say what you like.
Either one's free to obey the captain of the ship, or they are not.

 

[KWED]

Some definitions of God have requirements.

So god is constrained by our definition of him?
That actually makes sense in the context of god being a product of our imagination. But unfortunately not if god is the omnipotent, omniscient creator of universes, the ultimate power and authority.

 

[ppp]

Say what you like.

No doubt, I will.

Either one's free to obey the captain of the ship, or they are not.

You are falsely equating independent thoughts with independent actions. If I put a star trek device on your brain and force you to obey my list of rules, you would still be able to think independently. Just not act independently. Your reasoning is clumsy.

 

[KWED]

Don't start that nonsense again .. it's that trick of confusing the issue due to human perception of time.

Allah's decree is an expression that implies "G-d made it happen".
..just like the implication of "predestined".

It's a false impression, quite obviously.

You have repeatedly failed to show how free will is possible if god determines the outcome of all events. All you do is assert it is, and vaguely claim it has something to do with time.

One can't be deciding independently, if G-d is deciding for them.

Bingo!
So which is it? Does Allah determine the outcome of all events by decree, or do we determine them through free will?
It can't be both.

 

[ppp]

So god is constrained by our definition of him?

If there is a creator of this universe that does not fit your definition ( including but not limited to omniscient and omnipotence ) then you're not talking about God.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So god is constrained by our definition of him?
That actually makes sense in the context of god being a product of our imagination. But unfortunately not if god is the omnipotent, omniscient creator of universes, the ultimate power and authority.

If God is omnipotent, omniscient and the ultimate power and authority than I think it means God needs to be complete (perfect in Greek). I would think omnipresence would dictate that.

If God needs to be complete (perfect), He has to have good and evil aspects.

 

[DNB]

I am talking about the sermon "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" by Johnathan Edwards.

That's one person's interpretation. Yes, Edwards was a Calvanist/Reformed, which I don't subscribe to, as do many also.
In short, Edwards was neither inspired not authoritative, and may well have been just wrong - which I believe that he was.
You should've appreciated the fact that you were reading one man's interpretation, and justification of it.

 

[Ashoka]

That's one person's interpretation. Yes, Edwards was a Calvanist/Reformed, which I don't subscribe to, as do many also.
In short, Edwards was neither inspired not authoritative, and may well have been just wrong - which I believe that he was.
You should've appreciated the fact that you were reading one man's interpretation, and justification of it.

I was almost willing to give you a point in your favor because of your rejection of Calvinism, but then you had to go and turn it around and say that I should’ve appreciated it? I should’ve appreciated the trauma it caused me? I should’ve appreciated the depression, PTSD, the anxiety? No. No I should not have.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So which is it? Does Allah determine the outcome of all events by decree, or do we determine them through free will?
It can't be both.

No, G-d does not determine the outcome of all events.
It is a misnomer.

 

[DNB]

I was almost willing to give you a point in your favor because of your rejection of Calvinism, but then you had to go and turn it around and say that I should’ve appreciated it? I should’ve appreciated the trauma it caused me? I should’ve appreciated the depression, PTSD, the anxiety? No. No I should not have.

No, I mean that to blame God for Edwards opinion, you should've know better that his views were not necessarily under the auspices of God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's one person's interpretation. Yes, Edwards was a Calvanist/Reformed, which I don't subscribe to, as do many also.
In short, Edwards was neither inspired not authoritative, and may well have been just wrong - which I believe that he was.
You should've appreciated the fact that you were reading one man's interpretation, and justification of it.

Except it's not just his view, and the Bible does indeed mention god being angry at everyone and sees us as deserving of Hell, and there is rejoicing when people are cast into Hell.