‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[KWED]

If God needs to be complete (perfect), He has to have good and evil aspects.

So you are admitting that god is constrained by forces/concepts external to him.
So... where do those forces/concepts come from? Why aren't they "god"?

 

[KWED]

No, G-d does not determine the outcome of all events.
It is a misnomer.

Ah, so you reject Umar ibn Al-Khattab's statement...
“No amount of worrying can change the future. Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by God's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny, from you it cannot flee.”

Fair enough.
As a matter of interest, what makes you more knowledgable about Islam than one of the Rightly Guided Caliphs?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ah, so you reject Umar ibn Al-Khattab's statement...
“No amount of worrying can change the future. Go easy on yourself, for the outcome of all affairs is determined by God's decree. If something is meant to go elsewhere, it will never come your way, but if it is yours by destiny, from you it cannot flee.”

Fair enough.
As a matter of interest, what makes you more knowledgable about Islam than one of the Rightly Guided Caliphs?

To start with, we are conversing in the English language.
Are you claiming to be an expert on classical Arabic idioms?

It is obvious to me, that Umar was not like you. He had a love of Islam and wasn't just poking fun.

 

[KWED]

To start with, we are conversing in the English language.
Are you claiming to be an expert on classical Arabic idioms?

Seriously? The "Bits of translations that I disagree with are wrong, but the rest is fine" argument?

So, why do Muslim scholars, fluently bilingual in Classical Arabic, translate it as such? And why do so many Islamic sources repeat the quote in that form? Are you also claiming that they are all wrong and you are actually the ultimate authority on Classical Arabic? You do realise that the vast majority of Muslims can't understand Classical Arabic? Do you similarly dismiss everything they say about Islam? It is interesting we tend not to see this argument from people who genuinely are fluent in Classical Arabic - probably because they understand that the translations are accurate.
The "But It's A Translation!" argument has long been debunked.

It is obvious to me, that Umar was not like you. He had a love of Islam and wasn't just poking fun.

Yes, he had a love of Islam, and he was one of Muhammad's closest companions. And he believed that Allah determines the outcome of all affairs by his decree. That quote clarifies that belief in the parts before and after the actual statement. There is no ambiguity. You only reject it because it effectively removes free will. But who knows more about Islam, Muhammad's father in law and a Rightly Guided Caliph, or some convert off the internet?

I get this quite a lot. I quote Allah, or Muhammad, or one of the sahabah, or a classical tafsir, and I am accused of ignorance or fabrication or mockery. An apologist expresses an opinion and I am meant to just accept it as Islamic fact.

 

[wellwisher]

So you are admitting that god is constrained by forces/concepts external to him.
So... where do those forces/concepts come from? Why aren't they "god"?

Good and Evil is a 2-D concept. It divides the world into two polarized principles. God is actually more 3-D like creation and natural instinct. Natural instinct is morally neutral, while integrating life with nature into 3-D.

In Genesis, this distinction is made via the tree of knowledge of good and evil; 2-D, and the tree of life which is 3-D. Satan is historically, the binarius, or the principle concerned with 2-D. Humans became more 2-D and lost their connection to 3-D, after the fall, when the tree of life was removed from them. Humans downgraded from 3-D to 2-D after the fall.

One important point that is overlooked by most bible scholars is connected to God creating the heavens and earth in six days and then resting on the seventh day. The questions become, how long was the seventh day or how long was God resting? While God rested on the seventh day, who was placed in charge, doing the work of God, during this first Sabbath rest? On the Sabbath, God taught that one is not supposed to work. If work needs to be done it has to be prepared in advanced or subcontracted to others who are not on Sabbath. As God rested others were working for him.

One way to answer the question of how long was the first Sabbath, is to consider the scope of each day of creation; six days of creation, to see when something as epic as each days, appears again. Creating the universe, the heavens and earth, life, etc., is very epic. If it is less epic; like part the Red Sea, than God may still be resting and others with less capacity than God would be doing his work, on the first Sabbath, as God rested.

In my humble opinion, the first epic creation, in par with the first six days does not happen until Revelations, where Heavenly Jerusalem descends from Heaven. What we have is an entire be-jeweled city levitating from the sky. This is in a league of its own compared to various things after the fall from paradise. This should signal the eighth day after the Sabbath ends.

It appears Satan was in charge of the earth and humans while God rested. What is often attributed to God; acts of good and evil behavior, was the work of Satan, as he labored for God as his CEO. Satan was teaching humans 2-D thinking; good and evil, leading to reason; cause and affect.

The atheist argument of a perfect God doing good and evil, does not make sense since God is 3-D. This makes more sense about Satan in the context that God was resting during most of the Old and New Testaments.

When Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to pray and fast for forty days. Near the end of his fast, Jesus was visited by Satan, who among others things, promise Jesus the wealth and kingdoms of the world if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had Jesus accepted this offer he would have become the Messiah anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful able to subdue all enemies.

Jesus did not say, "Satan, you do not have the authority to do this". Jesus knew Satan was in charge of the earth, as God rested. Instead he declined the offer to become something better. He did not judge based on 2-D or good and evil for him or his culture; death. This act of 3-D or integrated defiance with the will of God, changes the dynamics in heaven. Satan would then be driven from heaven, with Jesus taking over his job, sitting at the right hand of power, as God finishes the last of his rest. Perfection and 3-D reappears when Jesus takes over.

 

[Ashoka]

No, I mean that to blame God for Edwards opinion, you should've know better that his views were not necessarily under the auspices of God.

His views are Biblical. He cited scripture. It wasn't an opinion. It's what the Bible teaches.

 

[Ashoka]

Except it's not just his view, and the Bible does indeed mention god being angry at everyone and sees us as deserving of Hell, and there is rejoicing when people are cast into Hell.

At 12 years old, I was more compassionate than the Christian God, and I saw how he treated people to be wrong and horrible. The Christian God is a petty bully, and if he exists, I want nothing to do with him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, why do Muslim scholars, fluently bilingual in Classical Arabic, translate it as such?

Why don't you ask them?
..and while you're at it, why don't you ask them if we have free-will or not?

..so in reality, you are saying that the scholars are not coherent, as they claim opposing things.
No .. it is you who want to take statements in a parrot-like fashion to suit your agenda.
Islam does not teach that G-d makes our choices for us.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So you are admitting that god is constrained by forces/concepts external to him.
So... where do those forces/concepts come from? Why aren't they "god"?

It's just a word salad. Our language may not even be enough to describe Him.

 

[KWED]

Why don't you ask them?

It was a rhetorical question. I don't need to ask them.
The reason is because, as experts in both Islam and Classical Arabic, they consider it to be an accurate representation of the original.

Now, you need to explain why they are wrong if you are going to continue to insist that they are wrong.

..and while you're at it, why don't you ask them if we have free-will or not?

Belief in free will is fundamental to Islamic belief. Without it heaven and hell would make no sense. On the other hand, there is also the concept of Qadr, under which Allah has foreknowledge of all events, and those events are determined by his decree. This is also essential to Islamic belief.
However, to the observer without the obligation to accept both, they are clearly mutually incompatible.

..so in reality, you are saying that the scholars are not coherent, as they claim opposing things.

Not really. I'm saying that Islamic doctrine is incoherent. Most Muslims are unable to see thins through cognitive dissonance and their argument are therefore often incoherent.

No .. it is you who want to take statements in a parrot-like fashion to suit your agenda.

No idea what you are trying to say here. What was it in response to?

Islam does not teach that G-d makes our choices for us.

Obviously not explicitly, but it kinda implies it. What do you think "The outcome of all affairs is determined by Allah's decree" means?
I mean, how often do you say "inshallah" when referring to things that are yet to happen, and "mashallah" about things that have happened? You are explicitly saying that these things are up to god, not you. You probably didn't even realise it!

 

[KWED]

It's just a word salad. Our language may not even be enough to describe Him.

Hmm. I get the feeling you aren't understanding what I am saying.

 

[KWED]

Good and Evil is a 2-D concept. It divides the world into two polarized principles. God is actually more 3-D like creation and natural instinct. Natural instinct is morally neutral, while integrating life with nature into 3-D.

In Genesis, this distinction is made via the tree of knowledge of good and evil; 2-D, and the tree of life which is 3-D. Satan is historically, the binarius, or the principle concerned with 2-D. Humans became more 2-D and lost their connection to 3-D, after the fall, when the tree of life was removed from them. Humans downgraded from 3-D to 2-D after the fall.

One important point that is overlooked by most bible scholars is connected to God creating the heavens and earth in six days and then resting on the seventh day. The questions become, how long was the seventh day or how long was God resting? While God rested on the seventh day, who was placed in charge, doing the work of God, during this first Sabbath rest? On the Sabbath, God taught that one is not supposed to work. If work needs to be done it has to be prepared in advanced or subcontracted to others who are not on Sabbath. As God rested others were working for him.

One way to answer the question of how long was the first Sabbath, is to consider the scope of each day of creation; six days of creation, to see when something as epic as each days, appears again. Creating the universe, the heavens and earth, life, etc., is very epic. If it is less epic; like part the Red Sea, than God may still be resting and others with less capacity than God would be doing his work, on the first Sabbath, as God rested.

In my humble opinion, the first epic creation, in par with the first six days does not happen until Revelations, where Heavenly Jerusalem descends from Heaven. What we have is an entire be-jeweled city levitating from the sky. This is in a league of its own compared to various things after the fall from paradise. This should signal the eighth day after the Sabbath ends.

It appears Satan was in charge of the earth and humans while God rested. What is often attributed to God; acts of good and evil behavior, was the work of Satan, as he labored for God as his CEO. Satan was teaching humans 2-D thinking; good and evil, leading to reason; cause and affect.

The atheist argument of a perfect God doing good and evil, does not make sense since God is 3-D. This makes more sense about Satan in the context that God was resting during most of the Old and New Testaments.

When Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to pray and fast for forty days. Near the end of his fast, Jesus was visited by Satan, who among others things, promise Jesus the wealth and kingdoms of the world if Jesus would bow and serve him. Had Jesus accepted this offer he would have become the Messiah anticipated by the Jews; rich and powerful able to subdue all enemies.

Jesus did not say, "Satan, you do not have the authority to do this". Jesus knew Satan was in charge of the earth, as God rested. Instead he declined the offer to become something better. He did not judge based on 2-D or good and evil for him or his culture; death. This act of 3-D or integrated defiance with the will of God, changes the dynamics in heaven. Satan would then be driven from heaven, with Jesus taking over his job, sitting at the right hand of power, as God finishes the last of his rest. Perfection and 3-D reappears when Jesus takes over.

Sorry, but I think you may have responded to the wrong person. None of that addresses the issues raised in my post.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..On the other hand, there is also the concept of Qadr, under which Allah has foreknowledge of all events, and those events are determined by his decree.

Since you are such an expert, perhaps you'd like to show us all how "Allah's decree" can mean G-d determines all of our choices for us..
No Muslim with any sense can believe that. It is gobdigook.

..but how can I expect you to understand, or even want to understand? Of course, I don't.

When somebody has an idea in their mind what something means, they won't let go.
You see the word "decree" and jump on it, as if it can only mean one thing.
Please yourself. I know better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't change what is decreed.
Not because you aren't free to choose,, but because what Allah knows must happen.

I mean, how often do you say "inshallah" when referring to things that are yet to happen, and "mashallah" about things that have happened? You are explicitly saying that these things are up to god, not you.

Not everything is determined by our choices.
G-d is able to intervene as He wills.

You might not even realise it.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Hmm. I get the feeling you aren't understanding what I am saying.

That's the problem. Our knowledge might not even be enough to understand God.

But I would say God allows the Universe to exist, is the most creative aspect, the supreme being (Jesus) and what gives us understanding (Holy Ghost) all at once.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

At 12 years old, I was more compassionate than the Christian God, and I saw how he treated people to be wrong and horrible. The Christian God is a petty bully, and if he exists, I want nothing to do with him.

I've come to notice most people are. And I'm confident if the Bible were initially published today it would be widely rejected and renounced, with its idea of god being compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I'm confident if the Bible were initially published today it would be widely rejected and renounced..

I doubt it, but even if that were true, it would only show how people today have got more money than sense.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I doubt it, but even if that were true, it would only show how people today have got more money than sense.

Nah. People would be offended to see Lot labelled as a righteous man.

 

[DNB]

His views are Biblical. He cited scripture. It wasn't an opinion. It's what the Bible teaches.

You're sounding radical now.

 

[KWED]

Since you are such an expert, perhaps you'd like to show us all how "Allah's decree" can mean G-d determines all of our choices for us..

Are you not familiar with the principle of Qadr? It is one of the six articles of faith.
There is a famous sahih hadith where even Muhammad illustrates the paradox...
“There is none of you, but has his place assigned either in the Fire or in Paradise.” They (the Companions) inquired, “O Allah’s Messenger! Why should we carry on doing good deeds, shall we depend (upon Qadar) and give up work?” Muhammad said: “No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created.”

He clearly states that everyones fate has already been determined by Allah, but you should still continue to do good deeds, even though it won't make any difference, but doing good deeds will be easy for those who are destined for jannah.
It is a nonsensical concept.

No Muslim with any sense can believe that. It is gobdigook.

And yet there is scriptural evidence that Allah determines our fate by decree, but if that is the case the concept of heaven and hell as punishment and reward is incoherent and the foundation of Islam makes no sense. Thus the paradox.

You can't change what is decreed.
Not because you aren't free to choose,, but because what Allah knows must happen.

So you are free to choose any option, but that option must be the one Allah has already decreed.
You have just used the Henry Ford maxim! ("You can choose any colour you like, as long as it is black")

Not everything is determined by our choices.
G-d is able to intervene as He wills.

So you admit that god does intervene in our ability to determine our own fate, thus removing our free will.
Finally!

 

[KWED]

I've come to notice most people are. And I'm confident if the Bible were initially published today it would be widely rejected and renounced, with its idea of god being compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

Indeed.
If a political party started today with the principles and practices of the Old Testament or Quran as its manifesto, it would be banned as a hate group.