‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[Sgt. Pepper]

I feared his wrath once. I'll won't again fear the notion of being a sinner in the hands of an angry god.

As I pointed out in my previous post last night, God personally kills people, and he orders people to be killed. That's not a loving and merciful God. A loving and merciful God doesn't turn a blind eye to six million of his own chosen people being slaughtered during the Holocaust. A loving, merciful heavenly father doesn't turn a blind eye to an innocent little girl praying to him, asking him to stop her mother from hitting her. Furthermore, a loving, merciful God doesn't turn a blind eye to the immeasurable suffering of humanity, either. In fact, a loving, merciful God, who truly loves his creation, wouldn't allow suffering to happen in the first place.

Except it was Jehovah. It's a very deep pain and hurt that you're entire life is miserable and something that is supposed to provide relief and comfort only makes things worse. The pains are never eased. The suffering never alleviated.
In my ex's case, a former Catholic, she got to endure all this with images of Jesus all around her in her Catholic school. She as well left because it was too painful.

Yes, it is God. Unlike devout theists, I refuse to blame Satan or humanity for the fallen world we live in. I don't put the blame on Satan and mankind because both are part of the creation. I put the blame where it actually belongs, and that's on the creator.

The sole responsibility falls upon the creator, who has infinite knowledge and infinite power, and has the supernatural ability to be everywhere simultaneously. How can a loving and merciful God deliberately turn a blind eye to the Holocaust and not stop it when he had foreknowledge that it would happen before he began to create anything? That's beyond cruel and sadistic, in my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As I pointed out in my previous post last night, God personally kills people, and he orders people to be killed.

Impossible, I'm afraid .. G-d is not a "person".

..a loving, merciful God, who truly loves his creation, wouldn't allow suffering to happen in the first place..

Incorrect. If people didn't suffer pain, they would not realise that something was wrong with their body.
In a similar way, if we didn't grieve, we wouldn't realise the things that really matter.

This life is a test .. it must eventually end. One should not confuse the oppression of human beings, with G-d not being merciful. He is very merciful. There is not one of us that doesn't wrong others in some way.

G-d knows our intentions .. I often wish for death. I find many human beings to be insincere.
However, I have hope with G-d. I know that there are also many sincere human beings, and look forward to a time when evil is no more. This life is not easy. We need to look at those that are worse off than ourselves, and thank G-d for what we have.
If all we can do is criticise and complain, and look to those who are "apparently" successful, we ruin our own souls.

..I refuse to blame Satan or humanity for the fallen world we live in. I don't put the blame on Satan and mankind because both are part of the creation. I put the blame where it actually belongs, and that's on the creator.

..yet that is the strategy of satan. If G-d is evil, which I personally find preposterous, what can anybody do about it?
satan's whispers can never succeed. They are deeply flawed.

How can a loving and merciful God deliberately turn a blind eye to the Holocaust and not stop it when he had foreknowledge that it would happen before he began to create anything?

Why does G-d give us sovereignty over ourselves, and allow us to explode nuclear bombs, causing people to suffer for centuries?

A big question. Your answer that we should all turn away from G-d is not one that will improve anything.
It is hard to love people who oppress you. Evil comes about through lack of sincerity, and fear of others.
What do you propose to unify people?
..because mankind is heading for disaster.
Who can we trust to rule the world? Which nation is not lost in philosophies that are designed to increase their wealth and power?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I feared his wrath once. I'll won't again fear the notion of being a sinner in the hands of an angry god.

That sermon ruined me. At 10-11. I was already being traumatized.

I remember listening to some 'hellfire and brimstone' sermons during the years I was a Christian. And in the midst of these awfully condemning sermons, the pastor tried to convince his congregation that God is loving, merciful, and their heavenly father.

The verses Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5 were both recited in these 'hellfire and brimstone' sermons.

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"But I’ll tell you whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill you and then throw you into hell. Yes, he’s the one to fear."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I pointed out in my previous post last night, God personally kills people, and he orders people to be killed. That's not a loving and merciful God. A loving and merciful God doesn't turn a blind eye to six million of his own chosen people being slaughtered during the Holocaust. A loving, merciful heavenly father doesn't turn a blind eye to an innocent little girl praying to him, asking him to stop her mother from hitting her. Furthermore, a loving, merciful God doesn't turn a blind eye to the immeasurable suffering of humanity, either. In fact, a loving, merciful God, who truly loves his creation, wouldn't allow suffering to happen in the first place.



Yes, it is God. Unlike devout theists, I refuse to blame Satan or humanity for the fallen world we live in. I don't put the blame on Satan and mankind because both are part of the creation. I put the blame where it actually belongs, and that's on the creator.

The sole responsibility falls upon the creator, who has infinite knowledge and infinite power, and has the supernatural ability to be everywhere simultaneously. How can a loving and merciful God deliberately turn a blind eye to the Holocaust and not stop it when he had foreknowledge that it would happen before he began to create anything? That's beyond cruel and sadistic, in my opinion.

My former Church said the Holocaust may have been punishment from Jehovah, supporting this with how he treats them in the OT.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That sermon ruined me. At 10-11. I was already being traumatized.

It is a rather nasty one. I'm just I eventually realized that with gods and people alike that isn't love and mercy but abusive and cruel. It's the guy who beats his wife and says of she just did things right it wouldn't happen. It parent who endlessly punishes a child to force conformity by providing scant shreds of approval. It's the authoritarian tyrant who proclaims the oppression and genocide is for the good of society.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One should not confuse oppression from other people, with a personal relationship with G-d.

It wasn't a fear of people that gave me nightmares of going to Hell. It was a fear of god and just how easy it is to offend him and break his rules.

Millions of people have had horrifying experiences in their lives. All human beings, regardless of religious persuasion, can behave badly.

That misses the point. It was having images of Jesus all around her, which turned into images of how Jesus did nothing to stop the bullying in his own house.

Know that G-d is not a tyrant. Those that love G-d will not be disappointed. They will get the help that they need.

Except lots of us don't. We don't get what we need until after we leave. Relief from shame amd guilt, relief from temptation, relief from fear, relief of depression and anxiety, and relief from emotional chains and existentialist shackles. Myself, I also got relief from my nightmares of going to Hell. I still remember the day, it was like I decided to rip IVs of poison from my arms and leaving behind very heavy baggage.
And much relief was instant. But much damage was done and healing took some time.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Except lots of us don't. We don't get what we need until after we leave. Relief from shame amd guilt, relief from temptation, relief from fear, relief of depression and anxiety, and relief from emotional chains and existentialist shackles. Myself, I also got relief from my nightmares of going to Hell. I still remember the day, it was like I decided to rip IVs of poison from my arms and leaving behind very heavy baggage.
And much relief was instant. But much damage was done and healing took some time.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is such a relief to be freed from the bondage of Christianity. There's no more fear, guilt, and shame hanging over your head once you finally decide to completely abandon your Christian faith and belief in God. It was such a relief for me, and it still is. There's no amount of shaming guilt trips or fearmongering that Christians (and other theists) can hurl at me that will ever convince me to become a believer again. My mental health is better and I'm much happier since I let go of my faith in God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Except lots of us don't. We don't get what we need until after we leave..

..and how is that G-d's fault?
Are you sure it's not more a case that we don't get what we want?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

..and how is that G-d's fault?
Are you sure it's not more a case that we don't get what we want?

I listed several bonafide needs. Needs that were unmet until after we left.

 

[DNB]

And yet you don't even say how.

Thousands of time in the past - Read the entire Bible, His grace and mercy outweighs His justice and wrath. You're only dwelling on the negative,
I'm very sorry that you were brought up in a misguided Church. But, that was in the past, and you're old enough to know that a bad teacher doesn't make the subject matter wrong.

 

[DNB]

That sermon ruined me. At 10-11. I was already being traumatized.



I've read the Bible cover to cover. I know what it stands for.

Jesus died for our sins, what is more gracious than that?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Read the entire Bible

I have. Seeing all the cruelty and violence helped push me away from Jehovah, because when I needed his love, mercy, and healing hand the most what I found instead of guidance was savage barbarism and brutal tyranny.

His grace and mercy outweighs His justice and wrath. You're only dwelling on the negative,

Not really. He cursed entire cities because the rulers because they believed Abraham's lies about Sarah. Abraham lied, yet others where punished. Lot's wife? How petty to kill her over that. The first born of Egypt were all innocent.
His "mercy" only extends to a few.

I'm very sorry that you were brought up in a misguided Church.

According to you and every other Christian who refuses to listen and refuses to accept that fact that Christianity and Jehovah are hell for many people.

But, that was in the past, and you're old enough to know that a bad teacher doesn't make the subject matter wrong.

It wasn't a bad teacher. It's the Bible itself.
And as I've been saying I have no desire or will to return to Jehovah. I'd rather literally shoot my own foot.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Jesus died for our sins, what is more gracious than that?

The only one with sin is Jehovah for not fixing the problems of Creation and choosing to create this system of abuse and torment while "rewarding" those who play along with this misanthropic system.

 

[DNB]

I have. Seeing all the cruelty and violence helped push me away from Jehovah, because when I needed his love, mercy, and healing hand the most what I found instead of guidance was savage barbarism and brutal tyranny.

Not really. He cursed entire cities because the rulers because they believed Abraham's lies about Sarah. Abraham lied, yet others where punished. Lot's wife? How petty to kill her over that. The first born of Egypt were all innocent.
His "mercy" only extends to a few.

According to you and every other Christian who refuses to listen and refuses to accept that fact that Christianity and Jehovah are hell for many people.

It wasn't a bad teacher. It's the Bible itself.
And as I've been saying I have no desire or will to return to Jehovah. I'd rather literally shoot my own foot.

I don't approve on any level, whatsoever. I do not agree with your justification, it sounds either entirely misconstrued, or convenient?

 

[rational experiences]

Rationale says. If a man says I am God then he believes he is allowed to perform his will.

If God existed as a God God is really nasty by humans experience.

So a human asks what terms does the God of creation own?

The review says the power to change any other body. Destructive. As God by type was once burning.

So the creation god in creation was once evil. Still explodes blows up breaks apart causes storms.

So we ask where is our unconditional loving God. Not nor ever was in creation.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I have. Seeing all the cruelty and violence helped push me away from Jehovah, because when I needed his love, mercy, and healing hand the most what I found instead of guidance was savage barbarism and brutal tyranny.

Not really. He cursed entire cities because the rulers because they believed Abraham's lies about Sarah. Abraham lied, yet others where punished. Lot's wife? How petty to kill her over that. The first born of Egypt were all innocent.
His "mercy" only extends to a few.

According to you and every other Christian who refuses to listen and refuses to accept that fact that Christianity and Jehovah are hell for many people.

It wasn't a bad teacher. It's the Bible itself.
And as I've been saying I have no desire or will to return to Jehovah. I'd rather literally shoot my own foot.

Well said, Shadow Wolf. You hit the nail on the head.

The only one with sin is Jehovah for not fixing the problems of Creation and choosing to create this system of abuse and torment while "rewarding" those who play along with this misanthropic system.

I couldn't have said it better myself, my friend. You hit the nail on the head again.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't approve on any level, whatsoever. I do not agree with your justification, it sounds either entirely misconstrued, or convenient?

And I don't agree with or approve of Jehovah being called loving, merciful, or graceful. He's far too violent, wrathful and dangerous.

 

[Ashoka]

Jesus died for our sins, what is more gracious than that?

That's not what it talked about. It talked about a god that hated me and could barely stand to look at me. It talked about how when I go to hell, that people will "fall down and adore that power and majesty" i.e., they will celebrate watching me burn in hell. It also is heavy on Calvinism, and that God only does things for his "mere pleasure." As in, he sends people to hell because it brings him pleasure, and he picks and chooses people because he can. It's a sick and disgusting sermon. It messed up my mental health and sent me spiraling into hopelessness and depression.

The "good news" isn't good at all.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's not what it talked about. It talked about a god that hated me and could barely stand to look at me. It talked about how when I go to hell, that people will "fall down and adore that power and majesty" i.e., they will celebrate watching me burn in hell. It also is heavy on Calvinism, and that God only does things for his "mere pleasure." As in, he sends people to hell because it brings him pleasure, and he picks and chooses people because he can. It's a sick and disgusting sermon. It messed up my mental health and sent me spiraling into hopelessness and depression.

The "good news" isn't good at all.

I've heard sermons before like the one you described, and it was a miserable experience. In fact, a pastor told me to my face that God hates me, and he's punishing me for the sins of my biological parents. He also called me a cursed soul. This same pastor would stand in front of his congregation on Sunday mornings and passionately declare God's love and mercy for all mankind. He would go on and on about how much God loves us all, and he's merciful to everyone who seeks him. I remember sitting in the pew, listening to his sermon and thinking to myself, "what in the world did I ever do to God to make him hate me, and why is he punishing me?" I was a devout Christian for many years. I genuinely sought God in daily prayer, I read the Bible, and I faithfully went to church.

 

[DNB]

That's not what it talked about. It talked about a god that hated me and could barely stand to look at me. It talked about how when I go to hell, that people will "fall down and adore that power and majesty" i.e., they will celebrate watching me burn in hell. It also is heavy on Calvinism, and that God only does things for his "mere pleasure." As in, he sends people to hell because it brings him pleasure, and he picks and chooses people because he can. It's a sick and disgusting sermon. It messed up my mental health and sent me spiraling into hopelessness and depression.

The "good news" isn't good at all.

You're not reading the same Bible, or not understanding it, for sure!