‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[night912]

Jesus will never kill a single soul - they will condemn themselves to hell - a place of mental torment, not physical anguish.

Being mentally tortured for all of eternity just for not believing in him because of the of evidence, that's not justice.

 

[PruePhillip]

Being mentally tortured for all of eternity just for not believing in him because of the of evidence, that's not justice.

Put it this way: you believe in God because you want to. You disbelieve in God because you want to.
There's deeper issues in a person's life than believing or disbelieving.

 

[DNB]

Being mentally tortured for all of eternity just for not believing in him because of the of evidence, that's not justice.

Re-read my comment - they asked for it, they voluntarily rejected God's mercy and grace through Christ Jesus. Reread my comment - they will be torturing themselves.

 

[night912]

Put it this way: you believe in God because you want to. You disbelieve in God because you want to.
There's deeper issues in a person's life than believing or disbelieving.

Not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[night912]

Re-read my comment - they asked for it, they voluntarily rejected God's mercy and grace through Christ Jesus. Reread my comment - they will be torturing themselves.

Who asked to be tortured for all eternity?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who asked to be tortured for all eternity?

You mean that we didn't ask to be born?
Oh well, good luck with that.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Who asked to be tortured for all eternity?

According to the Bible, a lifetime of disobeying God will cost a person an eternity of torture in hell, unless this person asks God for forgiveness of their sins (which he permitted in the first place) and accept Jesus Christ as their savior. That is to say, God permitted sin to come into the world whenever he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, because he had foreknowledge (as he is all-knowing) that they would disobey him. Rather than fix the problem right then and there, God decides to curse the rest of humanity with a sinful nature, and he also decides to sacrifice his own son to remedy the curse of sin that he permitted in the first place. In addition to this, the human beings who aren't forgiven of their sins and accept Jesus as their savior are tortured in an eternal hell. That's basically a synopsis of God's apparent cosmic plan for mankind. I don't know about you, but I think it's a pretty lousy plan.

 

[PruePhillip]

Not sure what you're trying to say.

No one can 'prove' God exists or does not exist.
That's your choice.
People will claim they have rational reasons for either position, but there are no rational reasons.
It comes down to your heart felt feelings about things.

 

[DNB]

Who asked to be tortured for all eternity?

You mean specific names, addresses, emails? What do you mean who?
Or, did you mean this Who?

 

[night912]

You mean specific names, addresses, emails? What do you mean who?
Or, did you mean this Who?

View attachment 59601

So you understood my point. That's what matters.

 

[muhammad_isa]

According to the Bible, a lifetime of disobeying God will cost a person an eternity of torture in hell, unless this person asks God for forgiveness of their sins (which he permitted in the first place) and accept Jesus Christ as their savior. That is to say, God permitted sin to come into the world whenever he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, because he had foreknowledge (as he is all-knowing) that they would disobey him. Rather than fix the problem right then and there, God decides to curse the rest of humanity with a sinful nature, and he also decides to sacrifice his own son to remedy the curse of sin that he permitted in the first place. In addition to this, the human beings who aren't forgiven of their sins and accept Jesus as their savior are tortured in an eternal hell. That's basically a synopsis of God's apparent cosmic plan for mankind. I don't know about you, but I think it's a pretty lousy plan.

Has it ever occurred to you, that you might have got it all wrong?
That you are explaining a creed you grew up with, rather than what the Bible actually means?
Of course, we can all make excuses why we don't want to follow a righteous path. What good will that do?
..a bit of fun for a while, and then slipping, sliding into depression.
Is it worth it? Never.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Has it ever occurred to you, that you might have got it all wrong?
That you are explaining a creed you grew up with, rather than what the Bible actually means?
Of course, we can all make excuses why we don't want to follow a righteous path. What good will that do?
..a bit of fun for a while, and then slipping, sliding into depression.
Is it worth it? Never.

I was a Christian for thirty-one years. I've read the Bible from cover to cover, and I've studied it multiple times. So, I'm familiar with its content. As far as I'm concerned, following God and the Bible is a crooked path chock-full of guilt trips, shame, and a perpetual fear of going to hell. It took me many years to forsake my Christian faith, but it was the best decision I've ever made for my mental health. I was able to let go of the fear, the shame and the guilt trips of disobeying God, and now I'm feeling peace and joy in my life.

I don't regret disavowing my Christian faith, but I wish I had given it up years ago rather than continuing to hold onto the false hope I had in God. I suffered deep depression while I was a Christian, but my mental health has vastly improved since I let go of my faith.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It took me many years to forsake my Christian faith, but it was the best decision I've ever made for my mental health. I was able to let go of the fear, the shame and the guilt trips of disobeying God, and now I'm feeling peace and joy in my life..

..for how long?
How can giving up righteousness achieve something good in the end?

I don't regret disavowing my Christian faith, but I wish I had given it up years ago rather than continuing to hold onto the false hope I had in God. I suffered deep depression while I was a Christian, but my mental health has vastly improved since I let go of my faith.

What specifically depressed you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem of evil is much more serious and hard to answer than most theist _(and atheist) realize.

In relation to your comments

It is logically possible to make a world where all people freely decided to do “good” so why disnt God created such a world. (for example in heaven people are suppose to have free will and everybody is suppose to be good)

Honestly I have no answer to this challenge except for:

1 this is a probabilistic argument against the existence of God

2 this argument is relatively weak compared to the positive arguments for the existence of God (Kalam, fine tuning, resurrection etc.)

The Problem of Evil isn't an argument against the existence of God.

"God does not exist" is one conclusion that resolves the dilemma, but it isn't the only one.

"God exists but is not an omnimax deity" also resolves the dilemma.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Problem of Evil isn't an argument against the existence of God.

"God does not exist" is one conclusion that resolves the dilemma..

There is no dilemna.
..unless of course you think that reality is not "politically correct".

I have also noticed how atheists make the argument, without taking into consideration what happens after death .. another consequence of "if G-d exists".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is no dilemna.
..unless of course you think that reality is not "politically correct".

Well, no. If you argue that sin exists in the world (however you define "sin") and that God disapproves of sin, then you have a dilemma: you have a supposedly perfect creator, in control of all inputs into the process, but he still managed to **** things up so his own process didn't give the outcome he wanted or intended.

I have also noticed how atheists make the argument, without taking into consideration what happens after death .. another consequence of "if G-d exists".

No, we take that into account.

Who is the better clockmaker?

- the one who has to manually adjust his clock to get it to show the right time, or

- the one whose clock just runs properly in the first place and never needs adjustment.

Any fix that might happen after death would only be necessary if God couldn't get his creation to run as intended from the start.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Any fix that might happen after death would only be necessary if God couldn't get his creation to run as intended from the start.

That's an absurd argument.
Our souls all have to return to G-d.
It is merely an illusion that we are independent and free.

Right now, you are free to conclude there is no G-d, and argue that G-d's revelations are illogical fiction.

By this token, you condemn billions of believers to being illogical.
You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By this token, you condemn billions of believers to being illogical

Only the ones who take their religion's doctrines seriously.

There are plenty of people who adhere to a religion out of social expectation and the like but don't think about the theology too deeply.

... but yes: it seems to me that there's plenty of irrationality in religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

... but yes: it seems to me that there's plenty of irrationality in religion.

..and it seems to me that many people don't like responsibility.
Nevertheless, they have it whether they like it or not.

If it wasn't for our desires, we wouldn't have trouble in obedience to G-d.
Money can't buy it. Sex can't buy it. You can't buy it.
..only the love of righteousness can set you free.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

..and it seems to me that many people don't like responsibility.
Nevertheless, they have it whether they like it or not.

Tell that to your god.

Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game. God being responsible wouldn't diminish our personal responsibility for our actions.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous it sounds for you to agree that God had control of every aspect of the process that led to us but bears no responsibility for that process's outcome?

If it wasn't for our desires, we wouldn't have trouble in obedience to G-d.
Money can't buy it. Sex can't buy it. You can't buy it.
..only the love of righteousness can set you free.

... and a capacity for cognitive dissonance, apparently.