‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[1213]

What a pathetic and digesting system. What kind of a monstrous creator god is this to judge everyone by the actions of just two people? What kind of a sadistic judge would sentence you to jail time because your great great grandfather once robbed a bank and the judge just figured that you most probably would have done the same thing? I don't want to be judged by the actions of my ancestors, I want to be judged on my individual merits. What kind of an unjust god would do otherwise?

Why do you think this life is a punishment?

If you are innocent, I believe God will compensate everything for you in eternal life, so don’t worry about anything.

 

[Ashoka]

Yes, Jesus is the Judge of the world, and his decision will send people either to eternal life, or eternal death.
He will not lay a hand on anyone, or commit violence against anyone, he will give them what the incessantly and arrogantly asked for: estrangement from God. Jesus used strong language to demonstrate this fact, but he will cut no one down or abuse anyone, but merely close the door behind him.

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war." - Revelation 19:11

"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." - Revelation 19:15

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why do you think this life is a punishment?

If you are innocent, I believe God will compensate everything for you in eternal life, so don’t worry about anything.

You're the one who claimed that the reason there's evil in the world is because A&E wanted to know what it was and that the reason everyone else must deal with evil is because everyone else 'probably' would have wanted the same thing. I'm not saying life is a punishment per se, just that some of us could be living in a world without evil if god had decided to not judge all of us by the actions of just two.

 

[DNB]

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war." - Revelation 19:11

"Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." - Revelation 19:15

Extremely figurative language.

 

[night912]

Ok, I don't think this life is a punishment. Why do you think this life is a punishment?

I was talking about within the context of what said regarding Adam and Eve. You said that most people would have made the same choice as them two, resulting in having a similar effect, experiencing evil in this life. And I was saying is that, in this life, those few who wouldn't have made the same choice as Adam and Eve still have a similar effect as them. So a system that judges things on what they are and on what they did, is not a just system.

EX:
Committing crime A will receive punishment A. With that said, if a judge's way of reasoning is that, because most people with black hair commits and/or will commit crime A, all people with black hair will receive punishment A, regardless of having committed crime A or not.

If we would think this is a punishment, and if one is unjustly suffering here, I believe God compensates it in eternal life, which is why I don’t see any problem in this.

Then you agree that your god is an immoral and unjust. If you don't see any problem with causing unjustly suffering to a person, than it just goes to show how immoral of a person you are. Someone who thinks that it's alright to cause unjustly suffering to another person shouldn't be a part of any society.

However, I don't believe there is any innocent people.

Then that would mean that you what you said below is meaningless and evidence of you and lying to someone else. Either that, or you have an illogical belief.

If you are innocent, I believe God will compensate everything for you in eternal life, so don’t worry about anything.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Never had the heart to challenge this old lady with the burning question, 'Where were YOU
when God called?' She never believed to start with.

Wow.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Thise sort of discussions in Church were probably the first chip in my faith to cause irreparable and terminal damage to it. Because, yeah, it was taught that suffering such heinous cruelty and barbaric torture was Jehovah's will, a punishment to those disbelieving and disobedient Jews. Basically saying they had it coming because just look at what Jehovah did to them in the OT.
Such positions are hateful and utterly void of empathy and concern for your fellow humans. Amd the arrogance and audacity to assume she never believed to begin with? That's pretty harsh and cruel itself.

It is like the story of Job just flies right past these people.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No, it says you are to kill them. It's not metaphor, it's not meaning something else, it says to report it to the elders and get to the stoning.
If it's an entire town that knew Yahweh and went apostate, they are all to die.

When I was researching for my book, I was shocked how the “moral” King Josiah even killed Yahwist priests. They believed in the right God but refused to accept Jerusalem’s religious monopoly and it reveals how it’s never been about loyalty to God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We have to come to terms with reality. Some people will not succeed, despite the many warnings that they receive.

Your God isn’t very smart. You don’t kill kids for not passing a test. You teach them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your God isn’t very smart.

He's the best we've got, I'm afraid.

I'm not prepared to alter reality, for it to "fit in" with what you desire it to be.
If you think that you are smarter than "my god", then I wish you good luck.

G-d does not harm anybody, we harm our own souls.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Of course they are sorry. Sorry they got caught out. But are they truly sorry, or would they just go on in their old ways like Pharaoh?
G-d knows what we are.

Pharaoh was stubborn precisely because God hardened his heart, so people died horribly and it’s not even Pharaoh’s fault.

 

[1213]

I was talking about within the context of what said regarding Adam and Eve. You said that most people would have made the same choice as them two, resulting in having a similar effect, experiencing evil in this life…

The problem with your thinking is that you see this life as a punishment. I don’t think this life is the punishment. Bible tells death was the “punishment”. And you will also have the same “punishment”, if you reject God and truth, according to the Bible, because eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

But, as long as you are alive, you have chance to become righteous and have life. This is why I don’t think anyone is punished by what someone else did. You die for your own sins, if you die and if you live, it is because of righteousness.

Then you agree that your god is an immoral and unjust. If you don't see any problem with causing unjustly suffering to a person, than it just goes to show how immoral of a person you are. Someone who thinks that it's alright to cause unjustly suffering to another person shouldn't be a part of any society.

I don’t think God is immoral, or unjust. I think He is perfect and just. Those who cause unjust suffering are evil people, not God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I wasn't "making" Jesus appear to be anything. That was a direct quote from the Bible. Jesus will cut them down; he will divide the sheep from the goats and those on his left, he will cast into hell. That's what the Bible teaches. Jesus will absolutely have a hand in it, according to the Bible.

I renounced Christianity because I could not reconcile its teachings with my own outlook on the world; which was more kind, compassionate and concerned for the well-being of all creatures. I could not believe in a God who demanded I worship him all the time on threat of death and hell; and I could not believe in a God who would allow his people to rejoice at the site of their loved ones burning in hell. At least my belief system provides a way out for everyone, even the lowest of the low, to one day achieve union with God. There might be bumps along the way, but you get there in the end.

That’s why I prefer Dharmic beliefs better. Even Gods must be moral or be punished. There just seems to be far less hypocrisy than the Abrahamic religions.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What don't you understand about G-d giving us the responsibility for planet earth?

The idea that G-d should not allow atrocities to happen is hypocritical.
Mankind allow them. They create fast forms of transport that cause severe injuries, and consider it "worth the risk" .. but somehow, G-d is negligent? Hmm.

If the employees screw up, it’s of course on them but the manager is also failing at THEIR job.

 

[Ashoka]

Extremely figurative language.

Not really. It's talking about Jesus being a conqueror. He will lead an army to kill those who reject him.

 

[PruePhillip]

Extremely figurative language.

I say mildly figurative language.
In the Old Testament there are TWO messiahs - the one who will destroy the enemies of Israel
and conquer the nations, the second is the lowly man of sorrows who came to redeem his people
by paying the price for their sins.
The redeemer messiah would be rejected by the Jews and their nation would be lost.
But there are prophecies which connect the two. In Zechariah 9 and 12 it speaks of the conquering
messiah returning, and the Jews mourning because this messiah was the lowly man who rode the
donkey, and was crucified.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I say mildly figurative language.
In the Old Testament there are TWO messiahs...

..maybe you need a new pair of glasses?

 

[DNB]

Not really. It's talking about Jesus being a conqueror. He will lead an army to kill those who reject him.

Jesus will never kill a single soul - they will condemn themselves to hell - a place of mental torment, not physical anguish.

 

[DNB]

I say mildly figurative language.
In the Old Testament there are TWO messiahs - the one who will destroy the enemies of Israel
and conquer the nations, the second is the lowly man of sorrows who came to redeem his people
by paying the price for their sins.
The redeemer messiah would be rejected by the Jews and their nation would be lost.
But there are prophecies which connect the two. In Zechariah 9 and 12 it speaks of the conquering
messiah returning, and the Jews mourning because this messiah was the lowly man who rode the
donkey, and was crucified.

Extremely figurative. The harshness and severity that will be exacted against the infidels, is not a physical retribution. There will be wars and violence, but the Messiah will not be the one wielding the sword. It is only his judgment against the defiant and depraved, that will have them cast into outer darkness, and this by their own free will - they rejected God's mercy and grace. Neither God nor Jesus will lay a hand on any of the reprobate, they will merely comply to their wishes - to be outcast from the Kingdom of God.

 

[PruePhillip]

..maybe you need a new pair of glasses?

Sorry, don't wear glasses. Perfect eyesight.
If you have some issue then just say it.