‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[Shadow Wolf]

Ok, water and sand, and maybe some seashells.

That's still trying to ignore the fact I said they are everywhere. Stars, planets, black holes, animals, bacteria, water, mountains, everywhere. My gods exist in all matter, in all energy, and all of existence.

 

[DNB]

That's still trying to ignore the fact I said they are everywhere. Stars, planets, black holes, animals, bacteria, water, mountains, everywhere. My gods exist in all matter, in all energy, and all of existence.

My God is a personal God, one who can be communicated with, and one who guides and teaches His children to love, and to resist evil. My God created all things including humans, and has a plan and purpose for all men - to be gathered together in fear and reverence towards the Father, and be subject to the lordship of His son, another human, Jesus Christ.

I have a feeling that your god doesn't quite compare - after all, rain is acidic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My God is a personal God, one who can be communicated with, and one who guides and teaches His children to love, and to resist evil. My God created all things including humans, and has a plan and purpose for all men - to be gathered together in fear and reverence towards the Father, and be subject to the lordship of His son, another human, Jesus Christ.

I have a feeling that your god doesn't quite compare - after all, rain is acidic.

You still don't get it do you? And what's wrong with rain being slightly acidic? That's how it is. Acids are necessary part of nature and life. Such as, the building blocks of us, our DNA, contains both acids and basics.
And my gods are better I must say. They don't want us to be afraid and acknowledge we have better things to do than stroke egos. Nor do they want us subjected to lords.
My god wants us standing with him.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A child who disrespects their parents, will be punished accordingly, and deservingly. Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!

If the God you worships is real and believes that, then let "him" handle it.
I don't see "him" handling it all that much, do you?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You still don't get it do you? And what's wrong with rain being slightly acidic? That's how it is. Acids are necessary part of nature and life. Such as, the building blocks of us, our DNA, contains both acids and basics.
And my gods are better I must say. They don't want us to be afraid and acknowledge we have better things to do than stroke egos. Nor do they want us subjected to lords.
My god wants us standing with him.

If I were to choose another god to follow, then I would choose your god over the Christian God, and I can say this with conviction. I no longer believe that the God of the Bible is loving and merciful. To be honest, I've come to believe that he is nothing more than a sadistic, barbaric, bloodthirsty, tyrannical monster. He admits to creating disasters and calamity (Isaiah 45:7), and then he sits back and watches mankind tear itself apart from the inside out, and he does nothing to stop all hell from breaking loose. We don't have to just read the Bible to know that this God is a genocidal monster, we can also validate that it's true whenever we examine human history. The so-called loving, merciful God of the Bible did nothing to stop an estimated 6 million Jews and an estimated 5 million non-Jews from being brutally murdered by the Nazis. I could also post a plethora of other examples to demonstrate my point, but the example of an estimated six million Jews being brutally murdered by the Nazis should be more than sufficient to prove that the God of the Bible isn't loving and merciful, or just and righteous. It's obvious that he doesn't even care about his own chosen people.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the example of an estimated six million Jews being brutally murdered by the Nazis should be more than sufficient to prove that the so-called loving, merciful God of the Bible apparently doesn't even care about his own "chosen people."

You don't know that.
It is more than likely that they are in a better place than you and I.
This life is only temporary.
Those that don't judge by what G-d has revealed cannot expect to be in a state of enlightenment.

 

[Ashoka]

Yes, what you said may be more relevant than I originally stated. My point was though, that you were making Jesus appear to be barbaric by this example, which applying the actual slaughter of the rebels to Jesus, was a gross misrepresentation of the allegory (circumstances were not real, the broad message was). Yes, rebels will die in one form or another. but it will not be Jesus who cuts them down.

Well, that's impressive, I wish that I could say the same. But, Ashoka, I really feel that you did not grasp the over-all message if you felt it worthy to renounce, and accuse it of wickedness and tyranny?
The mercy and grace revealed by God in the Bible is ineffable.

I wasn't "making" Jesus appear to be anything. That was a direct quote from the Bible. Jesus will cut them down; he will divide the sheep from the goats and those on his left, he will cast into hell. That's what the Bible teaches. Jesus will absolutely have a hand in it, according to the Bible.

I renounced Christianity because I could not reconcile its teachings with my own outlook on the world; which was more kind, compassionate and concerned for the well-being of all creatures. I could not believe in a God who demanded I worship him all the time on threat of death and hell; and I could not believe in a God who would allow his people to rejoice at the site of their loved ones burning in hell. At least my belief system provides a way out for everyone, even the lowest of the low, to one day achieve union with God. There might be bumps along the way, but you get there in the end.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I wasn't "making" Jesus appear to be anything. That was a direct quote from the Bible. Jesus will cut them down; he will divide the sheep from the goats and those on his left, he will cast into hell. That's what the Bible teaches. Jesus will absolutely have a hand in it, according to the Bible.

Yes, that is what the Bible teaches in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. Jesus does divide the people in his presence into two separate groups. He proceeds to praise the group on his right (the sheep) for the kindness and charity they showed towards other people during their lifetime, and he awards them with heaven. He then turns on the group to his left (the goats) and angrily berates them because they weren't kind or charity towards other people during their lifetime, and he condemns them to hell.

I renounced Christianity because I could not reconcile its teachings with my own outlook on the world; which was more kind, compassionate and concerned for the well-being of all creatures. I could not believe in a God who demanded I worship him all the time on threat of death and hell; and I could not believe in a God who would allow his people to rejoice at the site of their loved ones burning in hell. At least my belief system provides a way out for everyone, even the lowest of the low, to one day achieve union with God. There might be bumps along the way, but you get there in the end.

I can understand your sentiment, Ashoka, because I also renounced Christianity because I couldn't reconcile a loving, merciful God (and heavenly father) with the severe abuse I suffered while I was growing up. As a child, I frantically prayed to God to save me from the abuse I was suffering, but God didn't save me. I suffered physical, physiological and sexual abuse while I was growing up, and the abuse didn't stop until I left home when I was 18. I couldn't reconcile a loving God with the horrific reality of the world, either.

 

[DNB]

I wasn't "making" Jesus appear to be anything. That was a direct quote from the Bible. Jesus will cut them down; he will divide the sheep from the goats and those on his left, he will cast into hell. That's what the Bible teaches. Jesus will absolutely have a hand in it, according to the Bible.

I renounced Christianity because I could not reconcile its teachings with my own outlook on the world; which was more kind, compassionate and concerned for the well-being of all creatures. I could not believe in a God who demanded I worship him all the time on threat of death and hell; and I could not believe in a God who would allow his people to rejoice at the site of their loved ones burning in hell. At least my belief system provides a way out for everyone, even the lowest of the low, to one day achieve union with God. There might be bumps along the way, but you get there in the end.

Yes, Jesus is the Judge of the world, and his decision will send people either to eternal life, or eternal death.
He will not lay a hand on anyone, or commit violence against anyone, he will give them what the incessantly and arrogantly asked for: estrangement from God. Jesus used strong language to demonstrate this fact, but he will cut no one down or abuse anyone, but merely close the door behind him.

I truly believe that your are entirely misconstruing the Bible. Do you think that I worship God every minute, or even a fraction of what I should? Have I not stated enough times that I think I deserve to die, yesterday? And yet, do you see me calling God tyrannical or megalomaniacal? No, I have equally emphasized His grace and mercy time and time again.
Why, or how is it possible that you missed that over-arching principle of the New Testament - faith over works?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't know that.
It is more than likely that they are in a better place than you and I.

You can't be serious. Do you have any idea of the horrors the Jews (and others) were subjected to during the Holocaust?
And you're just going to say, Oh well, they're in a better place now, this life doesn't matter anyway .... ?
What a bizarre way to diminish human life.

You have no idea that they are "in a better place." That sounds like something you just say to yourself to make yourself feel better.

This life is only temporary.
Those that don't judge by what G-d has revealed cannot expect to be in a state of enlightenment.

This is the only life we know we get for sure. I think that makes it precious and we should treat it as such, rather than as some sort of place to wipe your feet on the way to some paradise, or whatever, that we don't even know exists at all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And you're just going to say, Oh well, they're in a better place now, this life doesn't matter anyway .... ?

You know fully well that I never said "this life doesn't matter".
If it doesn't matter, then that implies you can do whatever you like and there is no consequence.

I was replying to @Sgt. Pepper when he said that G-d doesn't care because he didn't do anything.
G-d very MUCH cares.

Naturally, people will claim that as reality can be so harsh, then we can conclude that suffering is in effect meaningless and Divine justice does not exist.
I conclude otherwise.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You know fully well that I never said "this life doesn't matter".
If it doesn't matter, then that implies you can do whatever you like and there is no consequence.

I don't, actually.

I was replying to @Sgt. Pepper when he said that G-d doesn't care because he didn't do anything.
G-d very MUCH cares.

How do you know this? This God didn't do anything at all to stop the Holocaust. And then you went on to say those 6 million people are in a better place now or something.

Naturally, people will claim that as reality can be so harsh, then we can conclude that suffering is in effect meaningless and Divine justice does not exist.
I conclude otherwise.

Why is reality so harsh if this God supposedly cares about us humans so much?

I'm going to do everything I can to lessen human suffering as much as possible, if I can. How come your God doesn't feel the same way?

"Divine justice" is not justice at all, imo.

 

[sojourner]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

I don’t think it’s an issue of free will, but rather an issue of how we human beings deal with suffering. Most suffering is perpetrated upon human beings by ourselves and by other human beings. A more pertinent question might be to consider when and how we’re going to mature enough as a species to handle the issues we create for ourselves. Why should we crap in our own sandbox and then expect God to come and clean it up for us? Why can’t we learn to take responsibility for our own crap? At some point Mommy stops changing the baby and teaches the child to take care of her own toileting. The question we need to ask is whether we have the spiritual and moral discipline to learn our own lessons and to open our minds to what the world teaches us.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm going to do everything I can to lessen human suffering as much as possible, if I can. How come your God doesn't feel the same way?

What don't you understand about G-d giving us the responsibility for planet earth?

The idea that G-d should not allow atrocities to happen is hypocritical.
Mankind allow them. They create fast forms of transport that cause severe injuries, and consider it "worth the risk" .. but somehow, G-d is negligent? Hmm.

 

[1213]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. ....

I also think it is not good argument. By what the Bible tells, God allows evil, because people wanted to know evil. That is the reason why people were expelled to this first death, which is much like the Matrix. Here we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily this is just a short lesson and those who are or become righteous, have can go back to life with God and nothing of this world can destroy our soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

 

[QuestioningMind]

I also think it is not good argument. By what the Bible tells, God allows evil, because people wanted to know evil. That is the reason why people were expelled to this first death, which is much like the Matrix. Here we can experience what evil truly means. Luckily this is just a short lesson and those who are or become righteous, have can go back to life with God and nothing of this world can destroy our soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

That's an interesting claim. So who are these people who wanted to know evil and why is this god punishing the rest of us for what some other people foolishly wanted?

 

[1213]

That's an interesting claim. So who are these people who wanted to know evil and why is this god punishing the rest of us for what some other people foolishly wanted?

Adam and Eve obviously, because they chose this. However, I think most people would have done the same. I don't think this is a punishment, because nothing of this can destroy our soul, which is the important thing. Body is only like a vessel for soul to experience this.

...fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
Matt. 10:2

 

[QuestioningMind]

Adam and Eve obviously, because they chose this. However, I think most people would have done the same. I don't think this is a punishment, because nothing of this can destroy our soul, which is the important thing. Body is only like a vessel for soul to experience this.

...fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
Matt. 10:2

What a pathetic and digesting system. What kind of a monstrous creator god is this to judge everyone by the actions of just two people? What kind of a sadistic judge would sentence you to jail time because your great great grandfather once robbed a bank and the judge just figured that you most probably would have done the same thing? I don't want to be judged by the actions of my ancestors, I want to be judged on my individual merits. What kind of an unjust god would do otherwise?

 

[night912]

Adam and Eve obviously, because they chose this. However, I think most people would have done the same. I don't think this is a punishment, because nothing of this can destroy our soul, which is the important thing. Body is only like a vessel for soul to experience this.

And those few who wouldn't have done the same is being equally punished. A system where everyone gets punished even if they were innocent, is not a just system.

 

[1213]

And those few who wouldn't have done the same is being equally punished. A system where everyone gets punished even if they were innocent, is not a just system.

Ok, I don't think this life is a punishment. Why do you think this life is a punishment?

If we would think this is a punishment, and if one is unjustly suffering here, I believe God compensates it in eternal life, which is why I don’t see any problem in this. However, I don't believe there is any innocent people.