‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[Ashoka]

You're sounding radical now.

I guess I would, if I actually believed the Bible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He clearly states that everyones fate has already been determined by Allah, but you should still continue to do good deeds, even though it won't make any difference..

Don't be ridiculous. It does make a difference.
..only satan and his followers would tell you that it doesn't.

 

[Fool]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

so the understanding is already skewed. it's dualist of i vs them. as if there is this eternal/infinite something that is limited by self. that is illogical. it can't be infinite/eternal/everlasting if it has limits. so then the form, you, the personality, is temporal, fleeting. the part that isn't, that energy is constantly reforming. 1st law of thermodynamics

john 14:17-20

 

[QuestioningMind]

so the understanding is already skewed. it's dualist of i vs them. as if there is this eternal/infinite something that is limited by self. that is illogical. it can't be infinite/eternal/everlasting if it has limits. so then the form, you, the personality, is temporal, fleeting. the part that isn't, that energy is constantly reforming. 1st law of thermodynamics

john 14:17-20

I don't have even the slightest clue what you're saying or how it relates to my post.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I guess I would, if I actually believed the Bible.

I wouldn't even say it's radical if you did believe as Edwards's sermon was a part of the Great Awakening. It's most certainly not just his opinion and shapes much the modern Evangelical thought today. And indeed the Bible records Jehovah himself saying he is angry and jealous, it speaks of his impatience and wrath towards what he has decided is sin, that we all are sinners deserving of Hell, and there is rejoicing when people are cast into Hell.

 

[KWED]

Don't be ridiculous. It does make a difference.
..only satan and his followers would tell you that it doesn't.

What do you think... “No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created.” ... means?

He is saying (just as Umar did) that you cannot avoid the fate that Allah has decreed for you. Your actions merely lead you to where you were going anyway.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He is saying (just as Umar did) that you cannot avoid the fate that Allah has decreed for you. Your actions merely lead you to where you were going anyway.

That's right .. you can't avoid the fate that is decreed.

..but NOT that G-d chose for you.
It is a misunderstanding if you think that Qadr involves the removal of free-will.

One still has to pray. One still has to do good deeds etc.
If your fate is to go to paradise, you will not get there by choosing to blaspheme G-d, for example.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If your fate is to go to paradise, you will not get there by choosing to blaspheme G-d, for example.

That's right .. you can't avoid the fate that is decreed.

If you can't avoid fate then you if it is your fate to go to paradise then you can blaspheme all you want because apparently it is a part of god's plan and it's unavoidable that you'll go to paradise.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you can't avoid fate then you if it is your fate to go to paradise then you can blaspheme all you want because apparently it is a part of god's plan and it's unavoidable that you'll go to paradise.

Oh, for goodness sake .. back to that again.

If you blaspheme all you like, it is contradictory that G-d knows you will go to paradise .. and He knows that !

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you blaspheme all you like, it is contradictory that G-d knows you will go to paradise .. and He knows that !

But if your god has a purpose and plan for everything then who are you to say the blasphemer isn't doing what god wants?

 

[YoursTrue]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

Right now God is basically allowing men to do what they want. It will not always be this way. Time will tell. Matthew 24 and 25 helps to understand somewhat.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But if your god has a purpose and plan for everything then who are you to say the blasphemer isn't doing what god wants?

Your signature says it all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your signature says it all.

Who's to say it's not god's plan that I cause rifts and get people leaving the church? Even Judas had a very dirty but extremely dirty job to do.

 

[KWED]

That's right .. you can't avoid the fate that is decreed.

So we are agreed. Whatever destiny Allah has decreed for us, we cannot avoid it. It must happen. We have no power to change it.

..but NOT that G-d chose for you.

God ordered that it will happen, so yeah, basically he chose that outcome because he could have ordered a different outcome.

It is a misunderstanding if you think that Qadr involves the removal of free-will.

lol. Of course it removes free will! How could it not? Once Allah says "event x will happen at time t", we have no free will regarding that event. We cannot chose to do y or z. The outcome is fixed by Allah's decree.

One still has to pray. One still has to do good deeds etc.

So you believe that we can achieve a different outcome to god's decree by our own actions? Really?

If your fate is to go to paradise, you will not get there by choosing to blaspheme G-d, for example.

two problems here:
1. If Allah has decreed that you will go to paradise, then blaspheming will not change that. Otherwise we have the power to change Allah's decree, which you have already accepted that we do not.
2. Whether we blaspheme of not is also determined by Allah's decree (remember Umar said the outcome of all events... not just some.)

Again, please address my actual points rather than just repeating "but we have free will to choose what we do".
Thanks

 

[KWED]

If you blaspheme all you like, it is contradictory that G-d knows you will go to paradise .. and He knows that !

Ah, I see you are starting to understand the problem here.
Of course it seems contradictory that god would allow a blasphemer into paradise. But if god has decreed that a person will enter paradise, and god's decree cannot be altered by our actions, and we also have free will, then that person can blaspheme all they like and they'll still get into paradise. It is the only possible outcome, even though it seems unreasonable.

Now, in order for the system to work as you would like it to, either god's decree can be changed by our actions (blaspheming means we won't go to paradise despite god decreeing it), or we do not have free will to behave in a way that would contradict god's decree (once god has decreed we will go to paradise we are unable to do anything that would prevent that). Unfortunately, you have already stated that neither of these is possible.

I would be obliged if you address my actual points here.
Thanks

 

[muhammad_isa]

God ordered that it will happen, so yeah, basically he chose that outcome because he could have ordered a different outcome.

No He did not.
That is word-play .. decree .. predestined etc. etc.

So you believe that we can achieve a different outcome to god's decree by our own actions? Really?

No .. I believe that we have choices to make, and they are part of "G-d's decree".
i.e. we all have a part to play in what happens, but what will be will be .. there is no point in crying over spilt milk

two problems here:
1. If Allah has decreed that you will go to paradise, then blaspheming will not change that. Otherwise we have the power to change Allah's decree, which you have already accepted that we do not.
2. Whether we blaspheme of not is also determined by Allah's decree (remember Umar said the outcome of all events... not just some.)

Total nonsense.
1. If G-d has decreed 'X' .. please don't tell me "if this if that", because you clearly have absolutely no idea
2. G-d's decree is not G-d playing with mindless puppets

 

[KWED]

No He did not.
That is word-play .. decree .. predestined etc. etc.

Words have meanings. A decree is an order for something to happen.

No .. I believe that we have choices to make, and they are part of "G-d's decree".
i.e. we all have a part to play in what happens, but what will be will be .. there is no point in crying over spilt milk

So you accept that whatever "choices" we make they cannot alter the fate that god has decreed.

Total nonsense.
1. If G-d has decreed 'X' .. please don't tell me "if this if that", because you clearly have absolutely no idea
2. G-d's decree is not G-d playing with mindless puppets

I notice that rather than address the specific points I raised, you just resorted to "that can't be!". Let's try again. Answer each question...

1. If Allah has decreed that a person will go to paradise, can that person change their fate by their actions? Yes or no?
2. Is the outcome of all events determined by Allah's decree? Yes or no?

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. If Allah has decreed that a person will go to paradise, can that person change their fate by their actions? Yes or no?

Pointless question, because you know the answer .. No.
Does that mean that G-d has made all your future choices for you? No.

2. Is the outcome of all events determined by Allah's decree? Yes or no?

Yes, and G-d's decree includes the whole of His creation.
i.e. the choices that we make

You want to make G-d into a person with a magic wand, willing everything to happen.
That is not what the Qur'an and Islam teaches .. and you know it.

The only people who follow your version of "rational thinking" will be those who choose to.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Right now God is basically allowing men to do what they want. It will not always be this way. Time will tell. Matthew 24 and 25 helps to understand somewhat.

So I take it you disagree with those theists who claim that free will prevents god from intervening.

 

[YoursTrue]

So I take it you disagree with those theists who claim that free will prevents god from intervening.

What I agree with is the God is God and is the Supreme Ruler of the universe. i believe that Adam and Eve were real people. They were given a choice. Before we might discuss logistics of that, it is helpful to understand that if a person jumps off a building willfully, it doesn't mean that action is predestined by God. If you recall, Jesus was told by the devil to jump off the cliff because he cited from the Bible re: the Messiah that he wouldn't get hurt. Jesus refused and told Satan to get away from him. Interestingly, the Devil left Jesus for a while. Jesus did not jump off the cliff.