11 errors by Jesus and friends.

[rocketman]

I have 11 examples of where Jesus & pals got it wrong.

When I consider things like the way Goliath's height has had to change over the years depending on what source one is using, I am reminded that there is clear and unequivocal evidence that the OT is not infallible in a verbatim sense. (The basic concepts therein are a different subject of-course).

In any case, there is no technical reason to declare that Jesus' version of the OT was wrong, any more than one can say which version of Goliath's height is right. The important thing is that neither Jewish nor Christian basic beliefs are reduced by any of these minor inconsistencies and mysteries.

Perhaps when you respond, you could pick one to focus on.

Well, I thought your third point was very weak. Luke even explains why he is calling it David's town, (and I would also suggest the possibility that he did that partly to differentiate from the more common usage of the term). In the context of a census &/or descendancy it makes perfect sense to use that partcular vernacular. And it would have been well known that David came from there.

If I may look at another, point 7 makes no sense to me at all, for clearly Moses did not actually baptize the Israelites, but rather Paul is obviously painting one of his fanciful metaphors. Therefore to focus on it's literal value is to miss the point.

And one more quickly, point 9, where you say Paul is attempting to turn zera into a singular. Well, if you look at the context he is clearly refering to a singular group, that is, in verse 29: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed". The group depends on Christ, not the other way around, so it does make perfect sense in context. For a good look at this issue might I suggest this essay.

Personally I doubt very much that Christianity would have made it out of יהודה if it were really as sloppy with the scriptures as you suggest. In any case, there is no serious challenge to christians here. It may be hard to accept for some, but there is so much we don't know about those NT times and exactly what OT verses they had.

But the spirit of both religions of the book is secure.

Shalom.

 

[rocketman]

I rank the Gospel of Thomas up there with the Dhammapada, and Ecclesiates, and the Tao Te Ching as some of the most inspirational works in history.

O yeah, the Gospel(sic) of Thomas is a real advocate for the womens movement :sarcastic :

Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life." 114.2 Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you." 114.3 But I say to you: "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Riverwolf]

Both versions? What do you mean? There is only ONE version... in Hebrew. (Which story in Numbers makes you give up?)

I meant translations; I can't read Hebrew. The Amplified Bible translation and the New International Version were the ones I read.

Actually, people did. It is a commandment that ALL Jewish males write their own Torah scroll, and a King of Israel has to write TWO.

The fact that not all Jewish males are capable of doing this means that it is necessary for them to pay someone to do it for them, which does count. But in the end, every Jewish family if not every Jewish male, was responsible for having such things available to be learned.

In Israel, especially at that time, I don't think this would have been a problem at all.

The Temple was not the only place of worship (as Jews can pray anywhere, even if we can only bring sacrifices to the Temple), nor was it the only place Torah scrolls were kept. If people didn't have their own, there were schools to learn Torah all over the place, even if the higher learning was most famous in the Yeshivot that followed the Sanhedrin.

Plus, Jews were supposed to gather in the market place every Monday and Thursday to hear the Torah read, as well as wherever the Jews were to hear it read on Saturday morning and afternoon, and New Moon, and holiday. Really... There were all kinds of times and places for people to learn.

To whom? Not to Jews in general. If even one letter was out of place in a Torah scroll, the entire scroll is invalid. Jews are careful about making sure that all of our scriptures are uniform.

Such "small" mistakes were actually serious errors, except to people who didn't seem to share the value of the absolute holiness of the scripture. These are things educated Jews take seriously.

That isn't a mistake. There were two of every kind AND seven pairs of every clean animal. Poisonshady was right with this one. There was one creation of the world, and a second telling of the story, as there were details that were focused on in the second telling.

I like Poisonshady's explanation of "table of contents" of sorts, and then more details later.

The way the ink is on the parchment, it can be scraped off.

Thanks for clarifying these issues.

 

[Riverwolf]

I vote for the Torah, as God personally dictated the Five Books of Moses to Moses.

All historical and scriptural evidence points to it being written well after Moses died. (Such as the inconsistent switching between Elohim and YHVH, various doublets, and other things that translations probably hide)

I think that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, then dictated a list of laws, but not the entire narrative.

 

[Harmonious]

All historical and scriptural evidence points to it being written well after Moses died. (Such as the inconsistent switching between Elohim and YHVH, various doublets, and other things that translations probably hide)

I think that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, then dictated a list of laws, but not the entire narrative.

You are free to believe that. And I am free to not believe your explanation.

It is a beautiful thing.

 

[Harmonious]

Please... show me where.

You're joking, right?

Nothing I point to will make you believe me on any point. Why should this be different?

 

[tomspug]

O yeah, the Gospel(sic) of Thomas is a real advocate for the womens movement :sarcastic :

Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life." 114.2 Jesus said: "Look, I will draw her in so as to make her male, so that she too may become a living male spirit, similar to you." 114.3 But I say to you: "Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Seriously. I've read the Gospel of Thomas. It's trash.

 

[Harmonious]

I meant translations; I can't read Hebrew. The Amplified Bible translation and the New International Version were the ones I read.



Thanks for clarifying these issues.

You are welcome.

 

[Riverwolf]

You are free to believe that. And I am free to not believe your explanation.

It is a beautiful thing.

That is so true. After all, if we all agreed, this world would be boring, no?

Besides, I will admit that the evidence isn't conclusive, and the inconsistencies can also indicate that Moses was in different moods while writing things down.

 

[rocketman]

Seriously. I've read the Gospel of Thomas. It's trash.

That's what I'm saying too.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You're joking, right?

Nothing I point to will make you believe me on any point. Why should this be different?

There was no smiley face. I am not joking. However, if you can't produce the evidence, I certainly understand.

 

[Jehonadab]

The proper translation here should be "in the account about Abiathar". Corresponding accounts are listed at both Matthew 12:4 and Luke 6:4. This is an instance where you can fault your bible's translator and not Jesus' perfect memory.

 

[Jehonadab]

Simply the rounding of numbers.....

 

[Jehonadab]

Genesis 47:29-31 have to do with Joseph swearing to his father that he would not bury him in Egypt. The blessing referred to in Hebrews did not occur until Genesis 48.

Before looking into any of your other claims I would like to ask did you research these errors yourself or did you pull them from another source?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Before looking into any of your other claims I would like to ask did you research these errors yourself or did you pull them from another source?

Why is that relevant?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Seriously. I've read the Gospel of Thomas. It's trash.

Solely out of curiosity, by what criteria is the Gospel of Thomas "trash" while the Gospel of Matthew is not trash?

 

[Riverwolf]

Solely out of curiosity, by what criteria is the Gospel of Thomas "trash" while the Gospel of Matthew is not trash?

Probably because the Gospel of Thomas doesn't have a narrative at all, and the sayings of Jesus don't really go in any order; basically "Thomas" just wrote stuff down that he liked and didn't attempt to organize it.

Personally, what I've read of it doesn't indicate "trash" though I haven't read all of it yet and I find the ending part (the part about women needing to become men in order to see God) to be rather... odd, to say the least.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Probably because ...

I don't believe I was asking you.

 

[kai]

I don't believe I was asking you.

oh wield that rapier!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

oh wield that rapier!

Stop whining. The fact is that I am actually interested in Jehonadab's opinion and wholly disinterested in Riverwolf's speculation about Jehonadab's opinion. I assume that Jehonadab is perfectly capable of answering for himself.