14 centuries old recipe to stop pandemic of Corona-virus?

[Limo]

Does it say anywhere in the Quran to sneeze into your elbow, or is the only advice to sneeze into your hand? And if the Quran only says into the hand, does it then admonish the sneezer to immediately wash his hands, or is it silent on how to not spread the germs?

While common sense tells anyone at any time in history to avoid being around sick people, I very much doubt anyone, including Mohammed even understood what viruses were, let alone how they are actually transmitted. The advice given does not reflect a modern understanding of how diseases are spread. This is not an example of magically understanding modern science in ancient times via supernaturalism.

Clearly, advising sneezing into your hand without any further advice to not touch any surfaces and then to immediately wash your hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, indicates they had no understanding of germs. Nobody did back then.

This is not in quran.
Prophet Mohamed instructions in washing hands starts from after wake up, before/after toilet, 5 times in Waduu, before/after eat, after return home.

Prophet Mohamed behavior in sneezing:

• There was no tissue, he uses his closes (or a piece of clothes like old days) to put it on his mouth for 2 reasons:
  • Stop things go out from mouse from going to others
  • Lower the voice
• In case there is no piece of clothes, then use your hands. for sure wash your hands after
• Don't turn right or left or back as there might be someone here or their

The bottom line is to protect others

 

[Limo]

What?? One Muslim guy thought Europeans were barbaric? You don't say!

I didn't say. I was not their. Even not only Ahmed ibn Fafhlan in 10th century, I provided 2 wester sources one is historical relegion book and another is very new one

• Viscuso, Patrick.Greek Orthodox Theological Review; Brookline Vol. 46, Iss. 1/2, (Spring 2001): 75-88.
  
• Katherine Ashenburg in her book The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History: copied from commentry Washing our dirty

Other than these 2 sources there are hundreds of books, pages, blogs,,,

Your summary is wildly inaccurate. Muslims started warring against the Byzantine Empire in the 7th century, yes, but victories and losses went back and forth for centuries. Also, the Byzantine Empire was only the Eastern half of the Roman Empire.

Byzantine Empire | History, Geography, Maps, & Facts

There were trials to colony some parts in Moselm world especially Palatine during crusader wars. All these trials have ended with severe defeats.
These crusader were coming not only from Byzantine Empire but from UK, France,,, all over Europe.
Nevertheless, the first crusader war was in 11th century. i.e after 4 centuries from been defeated
Moslems have defeated X-Western Roman Empire territories in north Africa and Iberia.

 

[danieldemol]

This type of lists is not new, It has been addressed many times. Accepting/rejecting such allegations depend on which side you're setting. Who ever reads in neural, will find the truth.
There are also Islamic sites explains the signs of science in Quran.

I have read some of these Islamic sites, they fail in my opinion to adequately address all points on the list.

Sure, someone who is adequately neutral will find the truth, but I doubt neutrality begins with assuming the Quran to be divine in origin.

 

[Limo]

Neat, so what?



No need.



You haven't brought me "every sign." You've dodged and evaded my questions and brought up completely irrelevant (not to mention inaccurate) comparisons to medieval Christians.

This is not Islamic volume, Is this inaccurate ?

From Viscuso, Patrick.Greek Orthodox Theological Review; Brookline Vol. 46, Iss. 1/2, (Spring 2001): 75-88. A chapter titles : Cleanliness, Not a Condition for Godliness: Alousia as a Canonical Requirement in Late Byzantium:​

o “Late Byzantine canonical regulations stipulate that prior to and after celebrating the Eucharist, presbyters may not cleans themselves or bathe. as an ascetic usage, from bathing or abstinence from cleansing is viewed as an element of Byzantine piety frequently found in monastic writings.”​

These are not accurate about medival Christians?
St. Jerome (347-420 CE ) once said: "He who has bathed in Christ has no need of a second bath."

o Christian ascetics took this axiom seriously.
o The Christians of the time avoided bathing specifically because they considered frequent cleansing as a sign of vanity, which was a "sin"
o The Church in Spain, for example, regularly encouraged believers to avoid bathing to better distinguish themselves from the hated Moors(Moslems) and Jews.
o They practiced the ritual mortification of the flesh by refusing to wash their bodies. They wore the same garments every day until they were reduced to rags.
o The stench that was produced was known by Christians as alousia or the "odor of sanctity". Saints like Agnes and Margaret of Hungary were venerated by Christians because of their rejection of physical hygiene.
o In the Rule of St. Benedict of Nursia, only those monks who were sick and infirm were allowed to bathe. Monks in good health and the young were encouraged to wallow in their own filth and excrement.

Is this book is inaccurate ? book The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History: copied from commentary Washing our dirty history in public: ?

I hope you proof that these references are not accurate, It's not Islamic anyway​

 

[Left Coast]

I didn't say. I was not their. Even not only Ahmed ibn Fafhlan in 10th century, I provided 2 wester sources one is historical relegion book and another is very new one

• Viscuso, Patrick.Greek Orthodox Theological Review; Brookline Vol. 46, Iss. 1/2, (Spring 2001): 75-88.
  
• Katherine Ashenburg in her book The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History: copied from commentry Washing our dirty

Other than these 2 sources there are hundreds of books, pages, blogs,,,




There were trials to colony some parts in Moselm world especially Palatine during crusader wars. All these trials have ended with severe defeats.
These crusader were coming not only from Byzantine Empire but from UK, France,,, all over Europe.
Nevertheless, the first crusader war was in 11th century. i.e after 4 centuries from been defeated
Moslems have defeated X-Western Roman Empire territories in north Africa and Iberia.

The one quite thorough reference I provided from Encyclopedia Britannica should help educate you. Your summary is absurdly one-sided.

 

[Left Coast]

This is not Islamic volume, Is this inaccurate ?

From Viscuso, Patrick.Greek Orthodox Theological Review; Brookline Vol. 46, Iss. 1/2, (Spring 2001): 75-88. A chapter titles : Cleanliness, Not a Condition for Godliness: Alousia as a Canonical Requirement in Late Byzantium:​

o “Late Byzantine canonical regulations stipulate that prior to and after celebrating the Eucharist, presbyters may not cleans themselves or bathe. as an ascetic usage, from bathing or abstinence from cleansing is viewed as an element of Byzantine piety frequently found in monastic writings.”​

These are not accurate about medival Christians?
St. Jerome (347-420 CE ) once said: "He who has bathed in Christ has no need of a second bath."

o Christian ascetics took this axiom seriously.
o The Christians of the time avoided bathing specifically because they considered frequent cleansing as a sign of vanity, which was a "sin"
o The Church in Spain, for example, regularly encouraged believers to avoid bathing to better distinguish themselves from the hated Moors(Moslems) and Jews.
o They practiced the ritual mortification of the flesh by refusing to wash their bodies. They wore the same garments every day until they were reduced to rags.
o The stench that was produced was known by Christians as alousia or the "odor of sanctity". Saints like Agnes and Margaret of Hungary were venerated by Christians because of their rejection of physical hygiene.
o In the Rule of St. Benedict of Nursia, only those monks who were sick and infirm were allowed to bathe. Monks in good health and the young were encouraged to wallow in their own filth and excrement.

Is this book is inaccurate ? book The Dirt on Clean: An Unsanitized History: copied from commentary Washing our dirty history in public: ?

I hope you proof that these references are not accurate, It's not Islamic anyway​

As just one example, Jerome was talking about baptism, not bathing for hygiene. There was a controversy in the early Church over whether people baptized by heretics needed to be rebaptized or if their first one was legitimate.

This is the kind of glaring ignorance your posts display. Just stop. It's not even relevant to the point you originally tried to make here. I'm not a Christian. Islam doesn't stand or fall based on comparing it to Christianity.

Try again.

 

[Limo]

Actually, they have been dismissed, not addressed.


I agree.
Those who want/need them to be divine and all will believe so.
Those who do not want them to be relevant, will not.


except that your next claim will be that anyone who does not accept the divine of it could not be neural...
Been there, done that, wore out the t-shirt.


well, they make sad attempts at trying real hard to make it look like something divine, but fail miserably.

They're addressed even in this forum we've discussed many of these. Anytime, just pick one, create a post, Moslems in this forum will address.

I know, it'll not make you change your opinion but it's an example for easy not hard to find out something in Quran get proofed by modern science only. It's not "sad attempts at trying real hard to make it look like something divine, but fail miserably"

Example THE MIRACLE OF IRON
This is not a hard trial, It's simple. Allah said in Qran iron is sent to earth then modern science discover it lately

 

[Limo]

I have read some of these Islamic sites, they fail in my opinion to adequately address all points on the list.

Sure, someone who is adequately neutral will find the truth, but I doubt neutrality begins with assuming the Quran to be divine in origin.

It's "opinion" matter.
Anyway, I'v seen some have been discussed here. Anytime, pick one and post. We moselms will discuss.

 

[danieldemol]

It's "opinion" matter.
Anyway, I'v seen some have been discussed here. Anytime, pick one and post. We moselms will discuss.

Well I do admit to having a favourite one, so although a point by point refutation is in order (since even one contradiction would disprove a divine origin), nonetheless I accept your challenge and will post my favourite one tonight when I get home from work.

 

[Limo]

The one quite thorough reference I provided from Encyclopedia Britannica should help educate you. Your summary is absurdly one-sided.

I think I commented earlier. Every source is surveying era or eras in a certain geography or geographies. It's point of views but the impact of Church on hygiene can't be denied.

I've a side to stand with, you're doing the same. You're doing harder than me. I didn't provide Arabic/Islamic sources. Even Ibn Fadhlan and Zyrab stories are from western sources. I didn't provide single Arabic resource.
But look at you, you're using your resources Britinca on from of 4 different resources.

Which opinion is "absurdly one-sided" ?

 

[Limo]

As just one example, Jerome was talking about baptism, not bathing for hygiene. There was a controversy in the early Church over whether people baptized by heretics needed to be rebaptized or if their first one was legitimate.

This is the kind of glaring ignorance your posts display. Just stop. It's not even relevant to the point you originally tried to make here. I'm not a Christian. Islam doesn't stand or fall based on comparing it to Christianity.

Try again.

Ok,Let us try again.
I would agree with you that Jerome meant baptizm not hygiene, if and only if it's Jerome only.
Was it only Jerome ?
What about ?

• Did St Godric walk from England to Jerusalem without washing or changing his clothes?
  
• Did St Agnes never once wash?
• Did St Jerome warn that hot baths stimulated sexual urges and were a particular menace to virgins?
  
• Did St Jerome declare that 'a clean body and a clean dress means an unclean soul'?
  
• Did St Thomas Aquinas gladly approve the use of incense in churches to mask the nasty niffs?
  
• Did St Bernard pointed out, 'where all stink, no one smells,'?
• .....
• There are many examples like this

Although, You's not religiously Christian but you're Christian in culture, liked or disliked.
You're defending Christian history, culture, hygiene.

I agree with you Islam doesn't stand or fail by comparing it with Christianity, but why I did bring the comparison of Christianity here ?

Because you and others responded that these Islamic hygiene is normal and everyone is doing since a long time in the whole world. Right ?

Then, we need historical evidences to find out if Islamic hygiene is and was general practice or not.

To be honest, It was a good opportunity for me to collect all these sources. I wouldn't expect the results.
Thank you and all other commentators

 

[Limo]

Well I do admit to having a favourite one, so although a point by point refutation is in order (since even one contradiction would disprove a divine origin), nonetheless I accept your challenge and will post my favourite one tonight when I get home from work.

No problem. I wan't challenging. It's not the first time that non Moslem submits issues about Islam and I'm not the only Moslem. Let it be open discussion to everyone not only me.
Regards

 

[McBell]

They're addressed even in this forum we've discussed many of these.

Emphasis mine:

Been there, done that, wore out the t-shirt.

 

[Left Coast]

Ok,Let us try again.
I would agree with you that Jerome meant baptizm not hygiene, if and only if it's Jerome only.
Was it only Jerome ?
What about ?

• Did St Godric walk from England to Jerusalem without washing or changing his clothes?

No idea. That's one guy. Ascetics do weird things.

• Did St Agnes never once wash?

No idea. That's one woman. Ascetics do weird things.

• Did St Jerome warn that hot baths stimulated sexual urges and were a particular menace to virgins?

Probably. That's a sexual hangup, not a hygiene-related one.

Did St Jerome declare that 'a clean body and a clean dress means an unclean soul'?

Probably. Again, not to do with the immorality of hygiene. It had to do with the association public bathhouses had as places of prostitution.

• Did St Thomas Aquinas gladly approve the use of incense in churches to mask the nasty niffs?

Probably. People do that now; so what?

Did St Bernard pointed out, 'where all stink, no one smells,'?

Probably. Again, because of the association of sex with bathing. Not because cleanliness was inherently evil or something.

Although, You's not religiously Christian but you're Christian in culture, liked or disliked.
You're defending Christian history, culture, hygiene.

No, I'm really not. Christian history and culture are full of awful things. So is Islamic history and culture. I criticize Christianity on this forum all the time. You want things to be black and white, where if I rebut a silly unhistorical myth about the Middle Ages, that means I must defend everything every medieval Christian ever said or did. Sorry, reality doesn't work that way.

And again, how is any of this relevant to what you claimed about the Qur'an?

I agree with you Islam doesn't stand or fail by comparing it with Christianity, but why I did bring the comparison of Christianity here ?

Because you and others responded that these Islamic hygiene is normal and everyone is doing since a long time in the whole world. Right ?

No. But even if that were true, what would that prove, to you?? Let's say Muslims came up with more hygienic practices than people before them. Cool. So what?

Are you going to respond to what I actually said about the Qur'an? Or just keep talking about how much medieval Muslims bathed?

 

[Left Coast]

I think I commented earlier. Every source is surveying era or eras in a certain geography or geographies. It's point of views but the impact of Church on hygiene can't be denied.

I've a side to stand with, you're doing the same. You're doing harder than me. I didn't provide Arabic/Islamic sources. Even Ibn Fadhlan and Zyrab stories are from western sources. I didn't provide single Arabic resource.
But look at you, you're using your resources Britinca on from of 4 different resources.

Which opinion is "absurdly one-sided" ?

Again, even if I'm completely, totally wrong and you're completely totally right and Christians were horribly dirty, disgusting, motherless dogs without exception for centuries on end....what does that prove about Islam? That's what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

[danieldemol]

No problem. I wan't challenging. It's not the first time that non Moslem submits issues about Islam and I'm not the only Moslem. Let it be open discussion to everyone not only me.
Regards

Sure, Here is my favourite one, open to all Muslims;

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

I have read a common Muslim response on this from an apologetics website, but instead of potentially strawmanning you by assuming you have the same evidently wrong interpretation of the Quran I will instead give you the chance to provide your response, and we will see how it measures up against the Quran.

 

[Limo]

Sure, Here is my favourite one, open to all Muslims;

Sky can Fall Down on People
The Quran's author thought that the sky/heaven is like a ceiling held up by Allah that can fall to earth or fragments break off and fall on someone. This is obviously impossible as the earth's atmosphere is simply made of gas and outer space is not a solid object.

And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds.
Quran 52:44
See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
Quran 34:9
Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.
Quran 34:9

I have read a common Muslim response on this from an apologetics website, but instead of potentially strawmanning you by assuming you have the same evidently wrong interpretation of the Quran I will instead give you the chance to provide your response, and we will see how it measures up against the Quran.

Will you create a new post to be available for everyone especially in relegious debate?
Regards

 

[Limo]

Again, even if I'm completely, totally wrong and you're completely totally right and Christians were horribly dirty, disgusting, motherless dogs without exception for centuries on end....what does that prove about Islam? That's what this thread is supposed to be about.

Theis hygiene is not preceded by anyone, it's very advanced, it can't be from human. It's from Allah.

 

[Left Coast]

Theis hygiene is not preceded by anyone, it's very advanced, it can't be from human. It's from Allah.

How did you determine that? Humans discover new things all the time.

 

[Limo]

How did you determine that? Humans discover new things all the time.

m
I personally not aware of this level of hygiene in any culture or religion
Nevertheless, the practicing of this hygiene is part of religion practicing.

5 times Waduu (wash of hands, face, arms, head and ears, and legs) is a must for prayer. Not doing Waduu means prayers are not done.