144,000?

[may]

Jeremiah 23:16 (New International Version)




16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
they fill you with false hopes.
They speak visions from their own minds,
not from the mouth of the LORD.

yes that is quite right ,those who rely on their own understanding have no understanding at all.
But if they had stood in my (Jehovahs)intimate group, then they would have made my people hear my own words, and they would have caused them to turn back from their bad way and from the badness of their dealings Jeremiah 23;22-23

And I myself shall collect together the remnant of my sheep out of all the lands to which I had dispersed them, and I will bring them back to their pasture ground, and they will certainly be fruitful and become many. And I will raise up over them shepherds who will actually shepherd them; and they will be afraid no more, neither will they be struck with any terror, and none will be missing," is the utterance of Jehovah.. Jeremiah 23;3-4 yes its good to know that Jehovah has and is, gathering his sheep back to him ,and he has provided shepherds who are actually shepherding instead of relying on themselves

(Jeremiah 3:15) And I will give YOU shepherds in agreement with my heart, and they will certainly feed YOU with knowledge and insight

 

[may]

Where did they get it from?

the bible

 

[linwood]

Maize, I have heard that 144k is 12k from each of the 12 tribes.
I know the Jwitness have the 144000 theory but I didn't know John Calvin prescribed to it also.

This is the reasoning the witnesses who have come to my house have given me when I asked.
It`s never been clear to me where they got this reasoning.

 

[Bangbang]

Where did they get it from?

I once asked an Elder how could you tell if you were one of the 144,000.He told me that I would feel no interest in remaining here on earth forever. I thought to myself. Who in their right mind would want tol ive here on Earth forever? He also said you can spot them by their glassy eyed look. Hey!....I have worked with serial killers that have that look. I had a friend that partook at the Kingdom Hall and they disfellowshipped him. He had that look....and still does. He is a very happy man. Wait...I got that look right now. Woweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!:biglaugh:

 

[dawny0826]

the bible

I realize this much. I was honestly hoping you could direct me to some scripture. I'll look it up in my own bibles.

 

[Dentonz]

I realize this much. I was honestly hoping you could direct me to some scripture. I'll look it up in my own bibles.

Rev 7: 4-8 is where they get the number. I have not read this entire thread so forgive me if I say somsthing that's already been said.
I believe the 144,000 in Revelation are literal children of Israel (blood born Israelites) that will be saved during the seven year tribulation. They will come to the realization that the messiah they have been looking for was Jesus. But for all of us that already believe, we will have already been raptured.

In my understanding the JW believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven and they have already been picked. The hope of most JW is that Jesus will return and ressurect the dead and they will live with him in his kingdom on earth. I also understand that they believe the "watchers" to be Jehovah's voice to them, so they accept all interpretation of scripture from them.

 

[may]

I realize this much. I was honestly hoping you could direct me to some scripture. I'll look it up in my own bibles.

And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

"And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." (Revelation 14:2, 3)

 

[may]

I also understand that they believe the "watchers" to be Jehovah's voice to them, so they accept all interpretation of scripture from them.

??? not sure what you mean by the watcher , are you refering to daniel 4;13 if so this watcher is a rightous angel doing Gods will, i think the bible refers to good angels as watchers
. (Compare Psalm 103:20, 21.)

 

[Dentonz]

??? not sure what you mean by the watcher , are you refering to daniel 4;13 if so this watcher is a rightous angel doing Gods will, i think the bible refers to good angels as watchers
. (Compare Psalm 103:20, 21.)

I believe the correct term is "watchtower society". I had a JW friend who called them the watchers.

 

[may]

I believe the correct term is "watchtower society". I had a JW friend who called them the watchers.

LOL oh i am with you now, well JW certainly do keep on the watch to bible prophecy , and world events as these fullfill bible prophecy .as Jesus told his followers .......... keep on the watch
"Keep on the watch . . . because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."—MATTHEW 24:42

 

[dawny0826]

And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

"And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth." (Revelation 14:2, 3)

I still interpret this as the 144,000 who are left and side with Christ AFTER the rapture.

Anyone who believes in Christ, picks up their cross and follows HIM is promised everlasting life. So, I have a hard time understanding your interpretation...unless you completely discount John 3:16.

 

[may]

I still interpret this as the 144,000 who are left and side with Christ AFTER the rapture.

Anyone who believes in Christ, picks up their cross and follows HIM is promised everlasting life. So, I have a hard time understanding your interpretation...unless you completely discount John 3:16.

they are the ones who will be with christ in the heavenly kingdom goverment,
Before any faithful members of spiritual Israel(144,000) could receive a heavenly reward, they would have to share a certain experience. Just as Jesus’ death on the torture stake preceded his resurrection to life in the heavens, so Christians with the heavenly hope must die before receiving their reward. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 36) That would be true of members of spiritual Israel living in the first century C.E. and of such individuals alive today

once Jesus presence as King began, we would expect the heavenly resurrection to start, commencing with those of spiritual Israel who had already died as integrity keepers. (1 Corinthians 15:23) They now serve alongside Jesus in heaven. But what of the comparatively few anointed Christians still living on the earth? Do they await the rapture

After referring to anointed Christians who had died, Paul said "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord. "The living" would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be "caught away" to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful early Christians, death as a human is necessary for them to be united with Christ in heaven.—Romans 8:17, 35-39 The presence of Jesus in ruling power started in 1914 when he was made king of the heavenly kingdom . that was when the 144,000 started to be resurrected shortly after 1914 ,but they haveto die first, they had been asleep indeath for many years , but in 1914 it all started , if there are any of the 144,000 left on the earth now , and they die , they do not have to wait they are resurrected in the twinkling of an eye .most are already up there with Jesus

 

[BM5]

What about women May ?

 

[may]

What about women May ?

what about women?

 

[BM5]

The 144,000 are those that have not been defiled with women indicating that these are males. So if I understand your position only males will have Heaven, correct ?

 

[wmam]

The 144,000 are those that have not been defiled with women indicating that these are males. So if I understand your position only males will have Heaven, correct ?

Ummmmmmmmmm....................

Read it very slowly and word for word. "defiled with women" does not indicate that they are males only. It has to do with being exposed to and submitting to pagan beliefs and worship. At least this is my honest opinion. There are other verses in Scripture that shows this in my opinion.

 

[Popeyesays]

John Calvin said that God will save only so many souls, 144,000, and that nobody knows who they are but God and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Where on earth did he get this idea?

Calvin was an apocalyptic and believed in predestination to go along with it. It comes from Revelations. One of those verses was already quoted, here is another:
""And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel"... (Rev 7: 2-4)"

I have always thought that the number was not the number of men chosen to be "saved".
Maybe it is actually the number of Divine Messengers God plans to send to man in the fullness of time. Considering we have only seen about a dozen in 10,000 years, perhaps we should not worry about it so much. The "Servants of God" is an interesting phrase since in my writings the supreme servants of God are the Manifestations of God sent to educate mankind.

Regards,
Scott

 

[may]

The 144,000 are those that have not been defiled with women indicating that these are males. So if I understand your position only males will have Heaven, correct ?

it is a known fact that in the bible women are sometimes spoken of symbolically, for instance (babylon the great) is spoken of as a woman, this woman is the world empire of false religion, and the bible tells us that she has daughters also . so the 144,000 have not defiled themselves with false religion or participated in her practices ,they are spiritually clean . things are not always as they seem ,we have to dig a bit deeper sometimes to get a correct understanding , especially in the book of revelation as after all for the most part it is highly symbolic

 

[verita]

Seems that this thread had stopped and the truth about the 144,000 is put into oblivion.

John Calvin said that God will save only so many souls, 144,000, and that nobody knows who they are but God and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Where on earth did he get this idea?

Saint Paul who is the Apostle for the Gentiles said this to the Christians in Colossas…
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

In the book of revelation it is clearly stated who are the 144,000.
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

12 tribes of Israel x 12.000 = 144,000 were sealed by the angel ascending from the east who had the seal of the living God.

Besides the 144,000 there is great multitude of people that were also given the seal in their foreheads. Their numbers cannot be counted who came from different nations. These are the Gentiles who repented and returned to God and they are called Christians.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Anyone who misled others, see what the book of revelation says…
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God bless you.

 

[sojourner]

Revelation is a tough book to interpret. Basing eschatology solely upon passages from Revelation is dubious theology.