Rubbish. It simply means that have no information regarding the matter.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
$144 fines for religious worship
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
You have no evidence to support your claim so it can be ignored as baseless until you can find something to support it.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
waitasec
Veteran Member
... because nobody's complaining about getting a fine for their bar mitzvah, which itself suggests that these fines just aren't being issued.
I agree, Jay. Musing about the amount of the fine takes as given that some fine would be issued.
If it makes you feel better ...
I guess my issue is with the regulation in the first place. Why should where you are able to worship be subject to zoning laws? If someone held a bible study in their home, would that also be subject to a fine due to these zoning laws?
Your garage sale example seems pretty analogous to what they did: They did not rent the building to have mass in every Sunday-- which would be like running a business outside of your home. They rented the place to have a one day celebration, much like having a garage sale would be a one day business venture.9-10ths_Penguin said:
I suppose I could see issues with a church renting out a public building for their weekly services, but certainly not for a potluck dinner involving a church service.
That probably depends on the scale of it. If it's just a few people coming over for a quiet evening, that'd probably fall under some reasonable definition of normal residential use. However, I remember a case that happened in Toronto a year or two ago where hundreds of people were visiting a house every weekend for worship services in a large multipurpose room in the house. The neighbourhood would be overwhelmed with parked cars, traffic and noise every week. I don't think that this person's neighbours should've had to put up with that... and in the end, By-Law Enforcement decided that they shouldn't.
As an example between those two extremes, there was a sort of shrine two doors down from my house while I was growing up. It was very popular with local Catholics, especially the Philipino community, to the point that it was often difficult for our guests to find a place to park on the street on a Saturday night and on a few occasions, the street was actually blocked by tour buses (yes, tour buses... Greyhound-sized Prevost buses on a small residential crescent). We never complained to the City, but what went on was certainly disruptive and inconvenient for us.
I don't think it is analogous, because the main reason I gave the garage sale example wasn't because it's infrequent; it's because a garage sale is ancillary to a residential use: at a legitimate garage sale, you aren't trying to make a living, and you aren't selling off inventory you specifically bought to sell; you're just trying to offset some of your cost of living by getting rid of unwanted items.
I think a one-day religious service is a lot more like a one-day trade show or seminar, which very well could be done as a business, even if it's infrequent.
In the article, the lawyer indicated that he felt the zoning laws were being misinterpreted and, hence, misapplied. The City dictated 'rules' in the agreement for the use of the facility that may have not reflected the spirit of the law.
Alceste
Vagabond
If somebody tried to fine a Jewish family for having a Bar Mitzvah in Montreal, it would definitely be news - especially if the Post was within earshot. The alleged persecution of Jews is like crack for right wing journalists.
Alceste
Vagabond
I have some questions about the story - she claims she was "never shown" the rental agreement that clearly states no religious services, songs, presentations etc. are permitted. I find that extremely implausible. Having been a public servant myself, I know a city employee won't do a thing for anyone without all the paperwork properly completed and filed away. There is no way she could have rented a municipal space without signing a rental agreement.
Which kind of makes me wonder whether she simply didn't READ the rental agreement, or whether the whole set-up is some kind of strange sting operation. Her organization has raised almost $200,000 in its 5 years of existence. It has 5 permanent staff but no website, despite the fact that it's proclaimed reason for existence is publishing and disseminating "religious literature".
I also wonder why she didn't do the obvious thing and have her ceremony in a church. I once rented an absolutely beautiful, historic church in Lachine on 10 minutes notice for an emergency relocation of a workshop that had been stupidly scheduled in a nearby stadium in the middle of a sound check. Rather than $700 and a rental agreement, the fee was nothing (we made a donation in an anonymous box) and the agreement was an appreciative handshake with the church secretary.
Montreal is FILLED with gorgeous, empty Catholic churches. You can't spit without hitting an under-used Catholic church. Why would a Catholic organization need to rent an expensive municipal hall when they have HUNDREDS of Catholic churches at their disposal for free?
Which kind of makes me wonder whether she simply didn't READ the rental agreement, or whether the whole set-up is some kind of strange sting operation. Her organization has raised almost $200,000 in its 5 years of existence. It has 5 permanent staff but no website, despite the fact that it's proclaimed reason for existence is publishing and disseminating "religious literature".
I also wonder why she didn't do the obvious thing and have her ceremony in a church. I once rented an absolutely beautiful, historic church in Lachine on 10 minutes notice for an emergency relocation of a workshop that had been stupidly scheduled in a nearby stadium in the middle of a sound check. Rather than $700 and a rental agreement, the fee was nothing (we made a donation in an anonymous box) and the agreement was an appreciative handshake with the church secretary.
Montreal is FILLED with gorgeous, empty Catholic churches. You can't spit without hitting an under-used Catholic church. Why would a Catholic organization need to rent an expensive municipal hall when they have HUNDREDS of Catholic churches at their disposal for free?
Or it suggests that there has been no attempt to schedule a Bar Mirzvah where it is disallowed.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Even if the story is not true, it can be taken as a hypothetical case to discuss an interesting issue. To what extent can/should public spaces be "zoned" regarding their use?
It seems to me that if a public space is made available for rent, it would be completely arbitrary to exclude "religious worship". I am not a fan of arbitrary, state-imposed restrictions on freedom.
It seems to me that if a public space is made available for rent, it would be completely arbitrary to exclude "religious worship". I am not a fan of arbitrary, state-imposed restrictions on freedom.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Agreed. The attempts around Park 51 comes to mind.
Alceste
Vagabond
That seems like a reasonable conclusion. When I rent a venue, I usually read the rental agreement first. If my activity is not permitted, I keep shopping.
Comments from The Cobourg Atheist:Had I known they were heard "speaking Italian" ...
Alceste
Vagabond
Sure, it is an interesting question. I lived in Montreal for several years myself and have some experience securing locations for films and music festivals. Overall, I think the city is fairly permissive compared to other cities when it comes to cultural events. Every weekend, there is some kind of festival blocking off the downtown city streets all summer long - the Jazz Festival, Gay Pride, Just for Laughs, and a dozen other events. Culture was everywhere but religion was nowhere. It was kind of awesome, to be honest.
OTOH, I found French Canadians in general to be somewhat intolerant of other cultures (especially Muslims) and hostile to the practice of religious observance in public spaces. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with that view - I am naturally inclined to prefer festivals that involve amazing, free music and beer in the streets to prayer meetings, so there's some inevitable bias involved. OTOH, I think it's up to them (the public) to decide how their property should be used. 86% of them claim to be Catholic, so I find it difficult to believe they're interested in persecuting Catholics by refusing permission to hold religious services in public buildings. Like I said, there are hundreds of beautiful churches in Montreal. The Catholics have way more elbow room than they know what to do with - more than they can pay for.
If the situation were different - i.e. if they had nowhere else to hold their services - I might think the terms of the rental agreement equated to the suppression of religion. In this case, though, it is a silly claim.