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$144 fines for religious worship

Alceste

Vagabond
Comments from The Cobourg Atheist:
Had I known they were heard "speaking Italian" ...

OK, that's an honorable effort to seek out "the other side", but this atheist blogger is entirely relying on details provided by a Christian propaganda outfit and laundered through the National Post.

http://www.cardus.ca/columns/2895/
http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/0...-fine-for-holding-a-catholic-mass/#more-41921

Unfortunately, we secular humanists are not immune to believing a bunch of hogwash and commenting on it as if it were true.

Interestingly, these stories all note that she actually did sign the rental agreement that the first article claims she was never shown.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If somebody tried to fine a Jewish family for having a Bar Mitzvah in Montreal, it would definitely be news...
*cough* :facepalm:
laugher.gif
*cough*
 
if you haven't read this...
But the issue Penguin raised is about the size of the gathering. That has nothing to do with the purpose of the gathering (religious, or otherwise).
Sure, it is an interesting question. I lived in Montreal for several years myself and have some experience securing locations for films and music festivals. Overall, I think the city is fairly permissive compared to other cities when it comes to cultural events. Every weekend, there is some kind of festival blocking off the downtown city streets all summer long - the Jazz Festival, Gay Pride, Just for Laughs, and a dozen other events. Culture was everywhere but religion was nowhere. It was kind of awesome, to be honest.

OTOH, I found French Canadians in general to be somewhat intolerant of other cultures (especially Muslims) and hostile to the practice of religious observance in public spaces. I don't know whether I agree or disagree with that view - I am naturally inclined to prefer festivals that involve amazing, free music and beer in the streets to prayer meetings, so there's some inevitable bias involved. OTOH, I think it's up to them (the public) to decide how their property should be used. 86% of them claim to be Catholic, so I find it difficult to believe they're interested in persecuting Catholics by refusing permission to hold religious services in public buildings. Like I said, there are hundreds of beautiful churches in Montreal. The Catholics have way more elbow room than they know what to do with - more than they can pay for.

If the situation were different - i.e. if they had nowhere else to hold their services - I might think the terms of the rental agreement equated to the suppression of religion. In this case, though, it is a silly claim.
It's silly to claim that one particular bylaw or "zoning" has the effect of suppressing religion. But it's not silly to claim that there is no other purpose for such zoning, as a matter of principle.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
By "first article" are you referring to the one quoted in the OP?

Yeah - "The fine print of her rental agreement, which she says she was never shown..."

OTOH, that NatPo article also claims she signed it. Talk about mixed messages!

Sounds like she signed a legal contract without reading it first. Not too smart.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sounds like she signed a legal contract without reading it first. Not too smart.

No, it wasn't. I'm sure glad that you and I have never done such a thing.

I'd very much like to see the relevant text of the fine print and of the ordinance upon which it's based, as well as the date that the ordinance came into being.
 
Yeah - "The fine print of her rental agreement, which she says she was never shown..."

OTOH, that NatPo article also claims she signed it. Talk about mixed messages!

Sounds like she signed a legal contract without reading it first. Not too smart.
Alceste, you seem pretty concerned about a person's failure to follow the law to the letter, and not very concerned about the legitimacy of said law and its conflict with basic human rights and freedoms. This is a side of you I have never before seen. ;)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yeah - "The fine print of her rental agreement, which she says she was never shown..."
OTOH, that NatPo article also claims she signed it. Talk about mixed messages!
Sounds like she signed a legal contract without reading it first. Not too smart.
In my experience, most people don't carefully read what they sign. This is why public policy renders some contract clauses unenforceable, & imposes some
fiduciary responsibility upon the writer of the contract. One can blame a lazy consumer only so much. I side with the believers & against the government.
(But they're Canucks, so what do I know about their silly laws.)
Personally, I write contracts to be clear & without surprises. Of course, this is entirely for selfish reasons....it works out best & minimizes drama.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
No, it wasn't. I'm sure glad that you and I have never done such a thing.

I'd very much like to see the relevant text of the fine print and of the ordinance upon which it's based, as well as the date that the ordinance came into being.

I considered calling the city and asking them to email me a rental agreement, but then I decided I don't care enough to incur long distance charges. :shrug:

It would be easy to do, though, for anybody who is curious enough to spend a dollar or two to get the hard answers.

Maison du Brasseur: 514-634-3471

I've never seen any actual "fine print" on a rental agreement for a public space, personally. Most of those types of agreements are a couple pages at most and the rules are clearly stated.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Alceste, you seem pretty concerned about a person's failure to follow the law to the letter, and not very concerned about the legitimacy of said law and its conflict with basic human rights and freedoms. This is a side of you I have never before seen. ;)

Until I can dig up the actual law in question, I'm treating it as a contract issue, not a bylaw issue. I found the zoning laws for Dorval, but Lachine is a Borough of Montreal and I can't find theirs. I'm not sure which law applies.

For info, Dorval permits the use of many publicly owned spaces for religious use, but has different categories of venue for different uses. So, while you can rent community centres for worship, you can't rent, say, a swimming pool or a library.

http://www.ville.dorval.qc.ca/en/downloads/pdf/By_laws/Reglement_ZONING.pdf

I think it is totally ridiculous to assume Montreal has a law that prohibits religious activity in public spaces just because a conservative Catholic think tank says so. In one of their other articles they write that regardless of the Pope's support for OWS, the OWS protesters should really be worrying about God, not income disparity: Not a credible source.

By-laws are one thing, contracts are another. I'm looking at this from the perspective of an event planner.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
In my experience, most people don't carefully read what they sign. This is why public policy renders some contract clauses unenforceable, & imposes some
fiduciary responsibility upon the writer of the contract. One can blame a lazy consumer only so much. I side with the believers & against the government.
(But they're Canucks, so what do I know about their silly laws.)
Personally, I write contracts to be clear & without surprises. Of course, this is entirely for selfish reasons....it works out best & minimizes drama.

Exactly. You rent out properties and have a vested interest in maintaining the quality and character of your property, so you want the rules to be completely clear. Unlike a software publisher or a mortgage lender, there is nothing to be gained by burying all kinds of unpalatable and outrageous clauses in dozens of pages of impenetrable legalese.

Do we have any good reason to assume the administrators of this public space behave differently than you do when they rent out the hall?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Do we have any good reason to assume the administrators of this public space behave differently than you do when they rent out the hall?
Government generally takes less care to have fair, clear & amicable legal relationships than I think is appropriate.
Perhaps it's cuz they hire so many Vogons.
Or it could be systemic.....the same entity which makes & enforces the laws, also adjudicates them. Tis a recipe for abuse of power.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think it is totally ridiculous to assume Montreal has a law that prohibits religious activity in public spaces just because a conservative Catholic think tank says so.
I think the assumption exists not "because a conservative Catholic think tank says so" but because someone is being fined for violating the ordinance. But you are clearly correct: there seems to be far too little credible reporting about it at this point.
 
Alceste said:
I think it is totally ridiculous to assume Montreal has a law that prohibits religious activity in public spaces just because a conservative Catholic think tank says so. In one of their other articles they write that regardless of the Pope's support for OWS, the OWS protesters should really be worrying about God, not income disparity: Not a credible source.
I agree with you there and thank you for pointing this out. I was considering the situation as a hypothetical.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I think the assumption exists not "because a conservative Catholic think tank says so" but because someone is being fined for violating the ordinance. But you are clearly correct: there seems to be far too little credible reporting about it at this point.

Sure, but the ticket is (apparently) for a zoning bylaw violation and the organisation signed a contract which (apparently) specifically prohibited the use of that particular space for religious services. To characterize the fine as religious persecution seems like nothing but self-serving spin generated by an organisation whose entire raison d'être is planting "news" stories in papers that provoke public discussion of conservative religious issues.

Montreal is over-regulated in many respects. There's nowhere to park, private businesses can't have English signs and it's a nightmare to build or renovate there due to an endless parade of inspectors demanding to be placated. No building is allowed to be taller than a big hill in the middle of the city (which, BTW, sports a massive neon cross right at the peak). There are a lot of ridiculous and frustrating bylaws in EVERY urban centre - those city councilors need to give themselves something to do.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I agree with you there and thank you for pointing this out. I was considering the situation as a hypothetical.

Hypothetically, it would be outrageous if any of the respective governments of Canada, Quebec or Montreal passed a law prohibiting the use of ALL public property for religious observance. It would also be illegal: a Charter violation.

Thankfully, that does not appear to be the case. From reading the zoning laws of Dorval, I suspect the city has some properties zoned for religious use and others where religious use is excluded.

That's kind of a moot point anyway, since the contract the woman signed apparently outlined the acceptable uses of the venue she rented.

Again, from the perspective of someone who regularly rents venues for events, you can avoid a lot of hassle by reading the terms and conditions before signing a rental agreement.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Government generally takes less care to have fair, clear & amicable legal relationships than I think is appropriate.
Perhaps it's cuz they hire so many Vogons.
Or it could be systemic.....the same entity which makes & enforces the laws, also adjudicates them. Tis a recipe for abuse of power.

Nice blanket statement there. My impression is the opposite: the public sector generally goes out of its way to maintain a high level of transparency and open communication with the people it serves. Of course there is often a high level of detail in municipal bylaws and regulations. There has to be. The last thing anybody wants (except maybe the authoritarian or corrupt entities within government) is a vague law.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Therefore Jayhawker should be fined for the misuse of right wing tabloid newspapers - there is only one permissible use for the National Post.
Not to mention the CCRL. I am willing to defer judgment until more information is available. You, on the other hand, seem committed to denigrating the Catholic group. It may turn out that you're right but that renders your smear efforts no more noble.
 
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