2 questions...

[shunyadragon]

Utilitarianism is another subject.
Morality can be figured out by critical thinking alone.

I seriously doubt that, human fallibility rules out being 'figured out by critical thinking alone.'

Actually utilitarianism is relevant to the argument. there is a utilitarian view concerning the natural evolution of morals and ethics.

 

[Truthseeker]

Somehow I don't think animals writhing in pain when being eaten alive by predators are growing spiritually from the experience. Ditto for people who are slowly tortured to death.

I don't pretend that all suffering leads to spiritual advancement. God allows this because He gave man free will. Those who suffer needlessly are given recompense in the next world.

I don't know about animals. As far as I know they don't go to a next world. It's hard to say how much the animals are suffering, we only know how much we might suffer under their circumstances. I can only hope that overall, there is more pleasure than suffering for animals and that there lives are worth living.

 

[Bird123]

Thank you for your comment.

I doubt anyone could figure it out ahead of time, meaning, I doubt anyone could pre-program it ahead of time. Probably the materialists are correct in claiming that the natural laws and matter itself have the ingredients necessary for, in our case, what turned out to be life exactly as it is. But who fine-tuned the fundamental constants of nature so such a thing was possible?

Sure, mankind has no where near the capabilities to have it figured out ahead of time. On the other hand intelligence does exist with such capabilities. Look at the complexities of things starting as seeds and progressing into very complex organisms. True intelligence automates rather than micromanages. Still, there are many lessons for children on their path to the highest level.

Complexity is surrounded by simplicity so that every level has something to learn. Example: Medicine and the human body started out as simple medicine. When DNA was discovered, the reality of complexity shows itself, yet when one looks at a person, it's simple, things just works so well.

 

[Bird123]

Yes, in certain systems a small change produces a huge unexpected effect. And certainly the random mutations and gene copy errors could behave like this. But my point is, that these quantum mechanics effects are strictly random, with no intelligence of what will proceed as a consequence. How can such random events produce such remarkable design without interaction and gentle "nudges" at just the right key moments by an intelligent designer?

The first thing God taught me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. Compound this with limited knowledge and the picture starts to clear. What a limited person views as random may not be random at all.

If man were meant to fly, man would have wings. On the other hand, once man acquired the knowledge of flight, it does not seem so impossible after all.

From my experience, God hides nothing. How long did mankind watch birds fly before mankind figured out how? The knowledge has always been there waiting for the hungry student to discover it.

To question, as you do, is the start on the journey to Discovery. Good for you!! Do not limit your view by placing predetermined walls between you and the truth. See what actually is then determine how and why the puzzle is made that way. It's a method many scientists have used.

 

[Bird123]

As far as the evidence goes suffering, pain and death are simply factors of life on earth nothing more nor nothing less.



There is no evidence that 'It has all been figured out ahead of time.' is too anthropomorphic of God from the human perspective. This is a religious belief.



Needs more explanation, because this does not reflect what is known concerning Quantum Mechanics, and its relationship to the Macro physical existence.

The theories and hypothesis concerning Quantum Mechanics should no be misused for purposes of justification of Theistic hypothesis.

Quantum entanglement: Perhaps a method by which the program running the universe can not be changed.

There is not known program running the universe. Are you speculating aliens?[/QUOTE]



your quote; As far as the evidence goes suffering, pain and death are simply factors of life on earth nothing more nor nothing less. My answer: If you see these things a simple, clearly you could never understand them. More lives beyond the surface. If one chooses to ignore that which lives beyond the surface, it brings up the question if one wants the truth at all. There is always more to Discover.

your quote;There is no evidence that 'It has all been figured out ahead of time.' is too anthropomorphic of God from the human perspective. This is a religious belief. My answer: Ebb and Flow of knowledge. Say a thousand years ago you found a car. Logic dictates much thought had to be taken ahead of time so that the car would operate. You would not have to know it's creator to know this. Further, true intelligence automates instead of micromanages. The person who made the car is not adjusting constantly as it goes down the road.

your quote;The theories and hypothesis concerning Quantum Mechanics should no be misused for purposes of justification of Theistic hypothesis. My answer: There is much more to Discover in Quantum Physics. Patience.

your quote:There is not known program running the universe My answer: There was a statistical scientist who determined that the universe was not old enough for everything to form out of random chance. He went on to say that there was time for everything to form if the universe was running like a computer program. Evolution and fractals seem to support this. Quantum entanglement supports a method by which the program can not be changed.

 

[shunyadragon]

My answer: There was a statistical scientist who determined that the universe was not old enough for everything to form out of random chance. He went on to say that there was time for everything to form if the universe was running like a computer program. Evolution and fractals seem to support this. Quantum entanglement supports a method by which the program can not be changed.

My post was not properly divided to answer. I will take this point first.

There is a statistical scientist who . . . ? Nothing here I can reference or respond to. A statistician is not a scientist. No scientific reference here to refer to.

Natural Laws are the only known cause of anything that has ever been observed to happen in our universe. Randomness is only reflected in human observations of some aspects of the Quantum World, and it is not known to cause anything.

Not old enough? The universe is over 13.5 billion years old.

The bottom line is your conflating different things in a confused way without references. You have a habit of arguing speculating on unknowns,

 

[tayla]

What a limited person views as random may not be random at all.

It's random; meaning, the position of the electron after the wave function collapse for trillions of events exactly matches the probability wavefunction. Also, there is no way to predict which location the electron will appear in next time.

I tend to favor the idea that it is not really random at all, that God knows and determines the location. But I have no idea the mechanism by which this could occur.

 

[Bird123]

It's random; meaning, the position of the electron after the wave function collapse for trillions of events exactly matches the probability wavefunction. Also, there is no way to predict which location the electron will appear in next time.

I tend to favor the idea that it is not really random at all, that God knows and determines the location. But I have no idea the mechanism by which this could occur.

Yes, I agree. There is much to Discover. When one discovers one thing, it opens doors which walks one forward to discover even more. Perhaps, baby steps will be the only path to true wisdom.

 

[Bird123]

My post was not properly divided to answer. I will take this point first.

There is a statistical scientist who . . . ? Nothing here I can reference or respond to. A statistician is not a scientist. No scientific reference here to refer to.

Natural Laws are the only known cause of anything that has ever been observed to happen in our universe. Randomness is only reflected in human observations of some aspects of the Quantum World, and it is not known to cause anything.

Not old enough? The universe is over 13.5 billion years old.

The bottom line is your conflating different things in a confused way without references. You have a habit of arguing speculating on unknowns,

Free your mind. The rest will follow. You limit your view. Perhaps, you can Discover more than you could ever thought possible.

 

[shunyadragon]

Free your mind. The rest will follow. You limit your view. Perhaps, you can Discover more than you could ever thought possible.

This is an evasive troubling answer. I am always on the road to discovery and a skeptical seeker, but fundamental sound scientific knowledge without religious bias is key to the knowledge and unfolding road of discovery of the nature of our physical existence.

Your previous response remains confusing, and scientifically unsound at the basic science level. the worst is bad terminology, and no coherent science references. You have give up religious bias, acquire basic sound knowledge before you can genuinely free your mind 'so to speak.' Evasive 'airball' answers do not help your cause.

 

[Bird123]

This is an evasive troubling answer. I am always on the road to discovery and a skeptical seeker, but fundamental sound scientific knowledge without religious bias is key to the knowledge and unfolding road of discovery of the nature of our physical existence.

Your previous response remains confusing, and scientifically unsound at the basic science level. the worst is bad terminology, and no coherent science references. You have give up religious bias, acquire basic sound knowledge before you can genuinely free your mind 'so to speak.' Evasive 'airball' answers do not help your cause.

Yes, I see you are confused. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Do you need scientists to discover everything for you? When supplied with information, do you investigate possibilities or do you argue to prevent any other action on your part?

I have no cause as you speak of. Like God, I place information, truth into the world. Your choices and journey have never been up to me nor do I want to control anyone in any way. My words do speak for themselves. Let's see what you can do with them.

Fact: Fractals are incorporated in the universe. This saves much time in the unfolding and generation of complex forms and systems.

Fact: Evolution is also intelligence at a high level. Make a diversity of beings from a single point just like a physical person is made from a cell. This is just physical. Heaven help if I mention we are Spiritual beings in our true natures.

Fact; Statistics may not be science to you, however it is a factor that can not be ignored. In statistics the greater the number of variables means the greater the numbers of possible combinations. Let me tell you. The number of variables are off the scale. Couple this with the chance interaction between key variables in order to generate physical balanced worlds much less physical complex thinking beings and animals and 13.5 billion years doesn't come close to touching it. Random chance could not have formed it all.

Fact: Quantum entanglement does exist. Distances do not matter. This shows an interface within the universe. This interface is so much more.

Now, you can choose to be blind to anything, however that will not change what actually exists. This hungry student will venture to Discover all my life. I could never wait for others to do it for me.

I am happy for you whatever you choose. Our choices will bring our education. Feel free to choose what you want to learn. One Discovers so much more when one does not limit their views or the possibilities.

I hope this helps. Language is heard through everyone's personal bias. These are but more walls and restrictions.

 

[shunyadragon]

Fact: Fractals are incorporated in the universe. This saves much time in the unfolding and generation of complex forms and systems.

False, and very confusing, scientific reference please?

Fact: Evolution is also intelligence at a high level. Make a diversity of beings from a single point just like a physical person is made from a cell. This is just physical. Heaven help if I mention we are Spiritual beings in our true natures.

False, there is absolutely no evidence for this foolishness.

Fact; Statistics may not be science to you, however it is a factor that can not be ignored. In statistics the greater the number of variables means the greater the numbers of possible combinations. Let me tell you. The number of variables are off the scale. Couple this with the chance interaction between key variables in order to generate physical balanced worlds much less physical complex thinking beings and animals and 13.5 billion years doesn't come close to touching it. Random chance could not have formed it all.

False. fact statistics is not science. Again, Fact, there is no such thing as a statistician scientist. Randomness has no known causal relationship for any cause and effect outcome in our physical existence. No scientific references?

Fact: Quantum entanglement does exist.

First true fact you mentioned. No scientific reference needed here.

Distances do not matter. This shows an interface within the universe. This interface is so much more.

Confusing nonsense.

Now, . . .

<zip the zits>

Missing here are scientific references and sound use of math.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

1. 'good' cannot exist without 'bad', any more than left without right, they literally define each other, they have no meaning without each other

2.- (3) the same way intelligent design determined the development of physical reality; by providing a vast array of finely tuned instructions, pre-determining how, when, where development occurs.

pure blind chance controlling it is the more problematic assertion

 

[Enlil]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

Here's my attempt at answering your first question:

There is an Eternal King of Light (ruling a Kingdom of Light populated by created light beings (light spirits)) and a semi-eternal King of Darkness (ruling a Kingdom of Darkness populated by dark beings (dark spirits)). The King of Darkness attacked the Kingdom of Light, enslaving countless light spirits in his Kingdom. The King of Light in a counter-attack created the physical form of the universe and all things in it out of the Kingdom of Darkness, making it easier for the light spirits trapped within to free themselves. We are some of those light spirits trapped in that (dark) material world. Pain and suffering stem from attachment to that material world. Free yourself from attachment to the material world and you will no longer feel the pain and suffering, and upon death will return to the Kingdom of Light.

 

[tayla]

Here's my attempt at answering your first question:

There is an Eternal King of Light (ruling a Kingdom of Light populated by created light beings (light spirits)) and a semi-eternal King of Darkness (ruling a Kingdom of Darkness populated by dark beings (dark spirits)). The King of Darkness attacked the Kingdom of Light, enslaving countless light spirits in his Kingdom. The King of Light in a counter-attack created the physical form of the universe and all things in it out of the Kingdom of Darkness, making it easier for the light spirits trapped within to free themselves. We are some of those light spirits trapped in that (dark) material world. Pain and suffering stem from attachment to that material world. Free yourself from attachment to the material world and you will no longer feel the pain and suffering, and upon death will return to the Kingdom of Light.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. Sounds a little like Christianity.

 

[shunyadragon]

1. 'good' cannot exist without 'bad', any more than left without right, they literally define each other, they have no meaning without each other

2.- (3) the same way intelligent design determined the development of physical reality; by providing a vast array of finely tuned instructions, pre-determining how, when, where development occurs.

pure blind chance controlling it is the more problematic assertion

Pure blind chance does not exist.

 

[RoseKnows]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

1. Our definitions of “good” and “bad” cannot be applied to something as grand and unknowable as god. God is simply god, and they have decided it necessary to create such things. One may further argue that it’s ultimately to create a better appreciation of the good. Can one know how good warmth feels without having been cold? Or the joys of love without having heartbreak?
2. Evolution, at least in my eyes, is most definitely a guided process, made to bring about beauty and balance. We are a result of such work, and god has given us the ability to recognize them, and that was planned from the start, from the moment ‘brush touched the canvas’, so to speak.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

Let go of fixed assumptions, and you'll do alot better.

1. Who told you God is all-good? Why do you need to believe this? Isaiah 45:7 clearly says otherwise. That God causes misfortune in addition to prosperity. But you ask, why would you want a God who causes you pain? The answer to #2 is actually the answer to #1. Evolution/growth happens under stress. Do birds need to adapt a certain bill if situations do not need it? No, they adapt because there is a life or death situation and to survive they need to change in about one generation. God gives us challenges precisely to get us to rise to them. Zachariah 13:9 and 1 Corinthians 10:13 both say roughly this.

Let me repeat this. Satan does not cause evil. God does, so that we know him and grow/evolve.Humans also cause evil, through free will.

So what does Satan do? Satan is a messenger, like all angels. Many Christians wrongly believe he is a fallen angel, that is incorrect. He's doing a dirty job.
His message is an accusation. "You're a fraud, you're going to hell, you did that wrong." This message doesn't come from obvious voices in one's head, it comes from coworkers, family, even bosses. This accusation actually CAN work for good, it rids us of complacency, by driving us to push against our accusation. But it can also cause us to lose faith, to become overwhelmed by constant negativity.

 

[tayla]

Can one know how good warmth feels without having been cold? Or the joys of love without having heartbreak?

I doubt this kind of thinking works with animals eating each other alive or people being tortured to death.

 

[tayla]

Evolution, at least in my eyes, is most definitely a guided process, made to bring about beauty and balance. We are a result of such work, and god has given us the ability to recognize them, and that was planned from the start, from the moment ‘brush touched the canvas’, so to speak.

Yes, I think so too. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.