2 questions...

[Kenny]

Thank you for your insights.

Seems this view assumes God is always in a state of becoming, of unfolding, as he interacts with his creation and its creatures.

I like the way you worded that.

Being very very very familiar with the Christian perspective, I know they usually think of God as outside of time or some such. But your examples involve time and relationship within time, and I think that is an essential ingredient in understanding God's nature and character.

Again... beautifully said. As one who believes that The Word was God, it really creates a beautiful love story. God being outside of time came into time to interact with the creation He loves. No longer some unreachable, untouchable or understandable, He came and understood suffering and participated in it and ultimately opened the door to destroy it.

It's also intriguing to consider that, if God is light, he has no time. Even though light interacts with the universe significantly, the light itself doesn't have time to notice; somehow it is transcendent.

True... somewhat mind boggling.

I totally agree with your view of the New Heavens and New Earth. Many Christians speak of heaven as the final goal.

Thanks again for sharing with me.

Have a great night.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

No intelligent design. The universe doesnt have a purpose but only that we put on it. It exists without us. Pain (and pleasure) are the natural part of human birth, life, and death. Survival is first priority to the body and mind before the mind catches up. Pain is natural. It comes with age and death. Our interactions with others we shouldnt expect to be perfect.

Its on the person to believe there is a god. Evolution is just what it is. Religion is from the person. The universe is ignorant of any design we give it. From surprise meteors and unexplained terminal illnesses that pop up in healthy people.

No design but what we make it. Pain comes from being human.

 

[Kenny]

Not in science that would justify your religious agenda.

Modern humans have been around for more than 70.000 years, and our immediate ancestors have been around for more than 2 million years.

Yes... we view the same information and come to different conclussions.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes... we view the same information and come to different conclussions.

This is not a clear response to the nature of the objective evidence, and like your previous post vaguely evading and misrepresenting the facts of science as in your statement concerning the speed of light, which did no reflect the actual science.

The bottom line conclusions are science and not opinions yours nor mine.

 

[Kenny]

This is not a clear response to the nature of the objective evidence, and like your previous post vaguely evading and misrepresenting the facts of science as in your statement concerning the speed of light, which did no reflect the actual science.

The bottom line conclusions are science and not opinions yours nor mine.

Probably because you read things through your strong bias which skews your ability to see correctly.

Are you saying that when you travel at the speed of light, time remains exactly the same?

 

[shunyadragon]

Probably because you read things through your strong bias which skews your ability to see correctly.

Are you saying that when you travel at the speed of light, time remains exactly the same?

First, time relative to the age of our universe galaxy and solar system has nothing to do with what time is like at the speed of light.

Second, briefly and simply: "As an object approaches the speed of light, its mass rises precipitously. If an object tries to travel 186,000 miles per second, its mass becomes infinite, and so does the energy required to move it. For this reason, no normal object can travel as fast or faster than the speed of light."

From: time speed of light - Google Search

"Third, According to the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference in the elapsed time measured by two observers, either due to a velocity difference relative to each other, or by being differently situated relative to a gravitational field. As a result of the nature of space time,[2] a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock.

Such time dilation has been repeatedly demonstrated, for instance by small disparities in a pair of atomic clocks after one of them is sent on a space trip, or by clocks on the Space Shuttle running slightly slower than reference clocks on Earth, or clocks on GPS and Galileo satellites running slightly faster.[1][2][3] Time dilation has also been the subject of science fiction works, as it technically provides the means for forward time travel."

From: Time dilation - Wikipedia

Such theoretical considerations of the Theory of Relativity, Time and the speed of light has absolutely nothing to do with the time scale of the history of our universe.

 

[tayla]

Likely true. But if no objective standard is assumed, morality becomes a matter of individual preference. All the villains of history are no longer objectively evil; they are just unpopular.

Hard to refute, but it seems wrong somehow. I think there is an objective standard, something like Kant's categorical imperative. But not everyone will accept my view as their view. So there is an objective standard which is subjectively accepted by each person. Weird.

Yes, if there is no objective standard, morality is a matter of individual preference as you note.

 

[Kenny]

First, time relative to the age of our universe galaxy and solar system has nothing to do with what time is like at the speed of light.

IYHO

Second, briefly and simply: "As an object approaches the speed of light, its mass rises precipitously. If an object tries to travel 186,000 miles per second, its mass becomes infinite, and so does the energy required to move it. For this reason, no normal object can travel as fast or faster than the speed of light."

Since we are talking about God, a Spirit, then obviously your position doesn't apply. We are talking about matter created within the context of a Spirit being (to which you have no idea about), who has ALL energy to move it (to which you have no knowledge about) and thus your statement becomes quite irrelevant.

"Third, According to the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference in the elapsed time measured by two observers, either due to a velocity difference relative to each other, or by being differently situated relative to a gravitational field. As a result of the nature of space time,[2] a clock that is moving relative to an observer will be measured to tick slower than a clock that is at rest in the observer's own frame of reference. A clock that is under the influence of a stronger gravitational field than an observer's will also be measured to tick slower than the observer's own clock.

Such time dilation has been repeatedly demonstrated, for instance by small disparities in a pair of atomic clocks after one of them is sent on a space trip, or by clocks on the Space Shuttle running slightly slower than reference clocks on Earth, or clocks on GPS and Galileo satellites running slightly faster.[1][2][3] Time dilation has also been the subject of science fiction works, as it technically provides the means for forward time travel."

From: Time dilation - Wikipedia

That is what I said

Such theoretical considerations of the Theory of Relativity, Time and the speed of light has absolutely nothing to do with the time scale of the history of our universe.

IYH and very biased O

 

[tayla]

It is my opinion that God can't create without knowing the results of his creation across all time from beginning to end. This is to say that God knows how all the pool balls are going to move from start to finish by the way he holds his queue. In this sense God doesn't have to worry about manipulating all the balls after the big break to get them into the pockets rather God knows all the balls will go into the pockets because of the way he holds his queue on break.

An intuitive idea which I hadn't considered. Solves all the problems (except the problem of evil) so I may have to adopt it after thinking about it more.

Total radical determinism; but by God, not by physics. I like it.

So the randomness of the quantum mechanics wavefunction collapse is not random at all, but just looks random because God makes it look random. Weirdly satisfying.

 

[tayla]

The universe doesnt have a purpose but only that we put on it. It exists without us.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

It's hard to image how such an uncaring thing as reality resulted in such caring creatures as ourselves.

 

[shunyadragon]

IYHO

Science is science, and not my opinion humble nor otherwise.

Since we are talking about God, a Spirit, then obviously your position doesn't apply. We are talking about matter created within the context of a Spirit being (to which you have no idea about), who has ALL energy to move it (to which you have no knowledge about) and thus your statement becomes quite irrelevant.

Bringing God into this when you are manipulating science to justify your agenda.

That is what I said

What you said has a religious agenda, and nothing to with the science of the history of our universe.

IYH and very biased O

I am advocating science as science without bias nor agenda, You are manipulating science to justify your religious agenda, and that is an extreme bias on your part.

 

[Truthseeker]

I assume God created everything, and that he should not be considered good if he created anything causing pain, suffering, or evil. Yet somehow there is pain, suffering, and evil. This is what I am pondering.

One solution is that a created free will creature (Lucifer) who rebelled against God. But this would mean he created the universe with its limited resources, the need for creatures to eat each other, and etc. This is more than Christians say about Lucifer. They think it is more satisfying to blame it all on Adam's sin, but this implies rapid evolution so that animals will become carnivores (for example), and a radical change to the natural laws to make the universe like it is today.

I'm stumped.

God put us into a situation where we get to decide between good and evil, and progressively grow spiritually. Suffering is part of the process of growing spiritually, and this world causes us to suffer, so we should not be attached to it, but look to spiritual growth. This world is a testing ground in preparation for the next world. Growing spiritually is what it's all about.

 

[Kenny]

Bringing God into this when you are manipulating science to justify your agenda.

Taking God out of the equation is manipulating evidence to justify your agenda.

I am advocating science as science without bias nor agenda, You are manipulating science to justify your religious agenda, and that is an extreme bias on your part.

Again... advocating science and then taking God out of the equation is what makes you biased-blind in reading evidence and is a great extreme bias on your part. Science is open to ALL possibilities

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

It's hard to image how such an uncaring thing as reality resulted in such caring creatures as ourselves.

Youre welcome. Yeah. I wasnt raised religious nor have a god-view. So, its easy to see myself as caring in an isolated world.

I see it as if you want "reality" to care, see your self, the positive and negative things, in relationship with the life you have rather than given. Basically look to yourself and mortality. I found the more I think of death as the end, the more I appreciate this life and seeing it "care" for me by how much I put care towards it and all living beings.

Reality can only care by our role within it. Without it, it just is: be the miracle.

I wouldnt see reality as uncaring, though. You are part of reality. It cares insomuch how you care and care for other (or for so be).

When you dont care, reality doesnt care. When you do, you affect reality that others would care in return. Ideally, that would make a world better. When you understand mortality, there is no such thing as perfect.

Caring is a human trait. Finding care in yourself then you can project it as from others (say god) and let it reflect and define reality.

Dont know if any of that made sense. Got to eat, ha.

 

[tayla]

God put us into a situation where we get to decide between good and evil, and progressively grow spiritually. Suffering is part of the process of growing spiritually, and this world causes us to suffer, so we should not be attached to it, but look to spiritual growth. This world is a testing ground in preparation for the next world. Growing spiritually is what it's all about.

Yes, well said. Hopefully there will be no suffering in the next world.

What is the nature of the next world?

 

[tayla]

Reality can only care by our role within it. Without it, it just is: be the miracle.

Good point. Thank you.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, well said. Hopefully there will be no suffering in the next world.

What is the nature of the next world?

I can't guarantee no suffering in the next world, this depends on the choices we make here. But we also grow spiritually in the next world so it gets better all the time. There are many levels in the next world, we progress from one to the next. What level we start with depends on the choices we make here.

 

[tayla]

Suffering is part of the process of growing spiritually, and this world causes us to suffer, so we should not be attached to it, but look to spiritual growth.

Somehow I don't think animals writhing in pain when being eaten alive by predators are growing spiritually from the experience. Ditto for people who are slowly tortured to death.

 

[tayla]

I can't guarantee no suffering in the next world, this depends on the choices we make here. But we also grow spiritually in the next world so it gets better all the time. There are many levels in the next world, we progress from one to the next. What level we start with depends on the choices we make here.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[shunyadragon]

Taking God out of the equation is manipulating evidence to justify your agenda.

Again... advocating science and then taking God out of the equation is what makes you biased-blind in reading evidence and is a great extreme bias on your part. Science is open to ALL possibilities

Science is open to all possibilities in the Natural Physical Existence when objective verifiable evidence may be falsified by in the form of theories and hypothesis. It is thankfully independent of theological/philosophical hypothesis and 'beliefs' that cannot be falsified by objective scientific methods independent of the belief and non-belief in God(s). That is science without bias nor agenda.

I believe in God, but I do not selectively manipulate science to justify a religious agenda as you do.