2 questions...

[tayla]

But once a species is created, it can mutate and devolve by random chance.

Yes, I agree. Once the structures are in place. But how do the structures get constructed in the first place? That is the question.

 

[tayla]

By monotheism, I mean the belief that either:
1. A Supreme Being created the first created thing, and he doesn't have any competition, but he may create any number of things including sub-deities.
or
2. There is only one God with whom we have to deal.

A good definition, better than any I can come up with.

The question is whether any of these created sub-deities can turn to the dark side and create a world of pain and suffering?

 

[tayla]

Assuming #1, The Supreme Being may have created a free will being who created another fwb, etc. ... who created this universe. The being who created this universe may or may not be subordinated to the SB.

This seems to suggest that in creating other sub-deities, God somehow creates an independent realm for each to operate within, a realm independent of his will and his power. They can then do whatever dastardly deeds within that realm they choose.

This, though, makes God rather aloof and perhaps even uncaring.

 

[tayla]

Basically good means that which is liked. It's purely subjective.

Seems to me that an animal writhing in pain while being eaten alive by a predator is not good; no way to subjectivefy this example. And there are examples far more horrible when considering humans.

 

[tayla]

if we want to call some particular behavior objectively good (i.e. moral) we need an objective goodness evaluator. Theists say the only possible candidate for that position is a Supreme Being.

A good point. How do we know whether something is good or bad. Seems like we have such a goodness/badness evaluator within our mind. There may be differences of opinion, but only a mentally deranged person would consider torturing an innocent merely for the warped pleasure of doing so to be good. This makes no reference to God, even an atheist could agree.

 

[tayla]

Atheist have an alternative, but they haven't figured it out. I don't want to get into that with you.

I'm interesting in discussing this topic. I think atheism is a valid position and that they have a lot to contribute to such topics.

 

[tayla]

claim to know what is good by some common sense definition, which is unfortunately yet to be articulated.

Yes, it just "feels" right. One way is to ask the question, "If you were creating a universe of created creatures and didn't know which one you would be, how would you create it?" Certainly it wouldn't be this one. You might end up as some predator's lunch. And you would certainly someday die as do all created creatures.

 

[tayla]

claim to know what the SB likes because of some particular scripture package

Yes, in my view we should reject all revealed knowledge as untrustworthy. If someone says, "God told me...", we should say, "No he didn't". Especially when they say, "God told me to tell you..."

 

[tayla]

no micro- management but natural laws govern the system.

This assumes random mutations and gene copy errors are sufficient to generate the chemical biological life we observe. I question this. And merely saying that the existence of such life proves it, doesn't prove it in my view. I favor intelligent design but struggle to discover the mechanism for this as the OP states.

 

[tayla]

Your last statement seems to agree with my perception that God's imagination is our reality and our soul is God's memory of us.

Thanks for sharing your insights. I find them helpful and edifying.

I think you are presenting what might be called a variety of philosophical idealism. What I wonder is how something as fluid and gauzy as imagination can result in molecules operating under the electrostatic force and quantum mechanics to create such intricately designed structures.

I agree that our soul is merely a manifestation of God's active being within his mind, or some such thing. In my view, both God and the soul exist in what I call the spiritual realm, that is to say, neither are part of the physical realm nor subject to the natural laws of nature but operate outside of it while at the same time integrated and correlated with it.

 

[socharlie]

This assumes random mutations and gene copy errors are sufficient to generate the chemical biological life we observe. I question this. And merely saying that the existence of such life proves it, doesn't prove it in my view. I favor intelligent design but struggle to discover the mechanism for this as the OP states.

old sage Nachmanides , some 800 years ago translated Genesis that only one thing was created ex nihilo - elementary particle of matter that contained blueprint of everything to be. It means it had ability to transform depending on condition to eventually turn into the world we see and our physical bodies in it, it may turned into something else elsewhere in Cosmos. It definitely implies some quantum properties working. In that light, it accounts for our universe and life in it. Evolution was built into the system, so it was pre-programed to come up with sentient life in different form(s) depending on conditions.

 

[Kenny]

Two questions I can't answer:\

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.

Choice. Because God is good and God is love... love demands a choice.

1. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

All information at the molecular level are controlled by informational wave lengths. "And God said..."

 

[tayla]

Evolution was built into the system, so it was pre-programed to come up with sentient life in different form(s) depending on conditions.

Thanks for your reply.

I wonder what the nature of this pre-programming might be? I can't think of one.

 

[tayla]

Choice. Because God is good and God is love... love demands a choice.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm starting to think that something like this is the answer. Free will in a created creature having power to create the entire universe and all the souls within it. Perhaps this creature didn't realize the pain and suffering and evil that his/her/its choices would result in. Fortunately there is a time limit built in; maybe 100 trillion years when the universe dies of heat death; then he/she/it can try it again and, hopefully, get it right this time.

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm starting to think that something like this is the answer. Free will in a created creature having power to create the entire universe and all the souls within it. Perhaps this creature didn't realize the pain and suffering and evil that his/her/its choices would result in. Fortunately there is a time limit built in; maybe 100 trillion years when the universe dies of heat death; then he/she/it can try it again and, hopefully, get it right this time.

I suppose there are many ideas and time will tell. Each religion has their own thoughs on the matter. As a Christian, I have my own thoughts.

 

[tayla]

As a Christian, I have my own thoughts.

Something like the Christian view is the one that seems most coherent to me.

Do you mind sharing your views on this topic?

 

[Bird123]

Two questions I can't answer:

1. The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
2. The mechanism by which intelligent design controls evolution. I can't think of one that is satisfying. Two possibilities: (1) God is a micro-manager at the quantum mechanics and molecular level, and (2) molecules are smart and can ask the designer what is needed so they can manipulate quantum mechanics randomness to affect the required changes.

God created all things. Can pain, suffering and evil be good things? Pain is just an indicator something is wrong. Could we really be without indicators?? Suffering and evil point the direction by which one needs to learn. Adversity breeds invention. Without adversity would one really make the effort. Our choices return our actions to teach us what our actions really mean. Learn and advance enough and evil will no longer be a viable choice. Since we are in a multilevel classroom, one will see those learning lessons we have already learned.

God and evolution: I've afraid you are not thinking advanced enough. The universe unfolds into what we have today and beyond just like a seed grows into a giant tree. It has all been figured out ahead of time.

Quantum randomness: Did you know there is order to chaos? When one reaches an advance stage, the complex starts to become so simple. Understanding changes the picture.

Quantum entanglement: Perhaps a method by which the program running the universe can not be changed.

Yes, there is always much more to Discover.

 

[stvdv]

It was all created in the first moment--there's no need for any further intermediation or meddling

Interesting thought. All is good what happens (debatable whether or not it is nice). So you're implying even intermediation of Jesus is not needed?

 

[shunyadragon]

When Adam was kicked out of Eden he was promised death, toil, pain and taxes.
I think there is no micro- management but natural laws govern the system.

Contemporary culture has resolved toil and pain, but death and taxes remain.

 

[shunyadragon]

I agree that increased complexity doesn't happen by random chance. But once a species is created, it can mutate and devolve by random chance.

Actually this is not how evolution takes place. There is no point where we can define a species that is not in the process of change and diversification. Species are not known to devolve, and randomness is not known to a causative factor in any aspect of evolution.