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4 creatures creat (or evolute) new creature?

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
A "modern" phenomenon? Are you being serious right now? Islam has been dictating the Adam and Eve story since the time of the prophet. You are telling me that the majority of Muslims since the death of the prophet have been actively believing in the theory of evolution and then suddenly Oktar came along and changed all that? haha yeah right. It being MOSTLY caused by Oktar is a ridiculous statement too since its been the position of the four schools since their creation.
Yes, the rejection of evolution is a wholly modern phenomenon that has increased in the last 40 years.

And allow me to explain something:
Even if "Islam has been dictating the Adam and Eve story since the time of the prophet", this doesn't mean it is supposed to be taken literally.
With the increase in knowledge and evidence to support that of evolution, many Muslims have been willing to accept it without it harming their faith.

Oh here it comes the; "things i like ill take literal; things i don't like is metaphorical". A common creationist tactic used to battle the inconsistencies of their religion.
You don't know what you're talking about. :rolleyes:

Islamic scholarship is of the view that the Adam and Eve story must be taken literally.
Islamic scholarship is not science, though, and many Muslims accept evolution.

Most Muslims 'accept' human evolution - Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com

http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf

Look at those numbers. 62%, 79%, 78%, 67%...

But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. :rolleyes:

This is hilarious; you take beings like angels and demons or events like the prophet ascending to heaven on a winged horse literally
Do I? Thanks for telling me.


And BTW Al-Jahiz was a Mutazili---a sect of Islam that would be considered heretics in this day and age. Al-Jahiz was a singular man; he did not represent Islam and his views did not either;
And it doesn't mean anything that al-Jahiz was a Mutazili. It shows that even before there was so much evidence to back up evolution, Muslims were willing to accept the idea of it because it made sense to them..

using him as an argument for why evolution was or is accepted in Islam is futile.
What's futile is discussing with someone whose arguments are so weak that they have to rely on ignorance of Islamic theology. The facts are there, no amount of wishful thinking that Muslims are forced to be creationists will work.
 

Oz-Man

Member
Yes, the rejection of evolution is a wholly modern phenomenon that has increased in the last 40 years.

Prove it. Prove that Muslims have been believing in Evolution all along for the past 1400 years.

And allow me to explain something:
Even if "Islam has been dictating the Adam and Eve story since the time of the prophet", this doesn't mean it is supposed to be taken literally.
With the increase in knowledge and evidence to support that of evolution, many Muslims have been willing to accept it without it harming their faith.

Islamic scholarship and fiqh dictate that it should be taken literally. How do you judge what is to be taken literally and what is not? Anytime you find out something in the Quran is wrong or not compatible with science; you stop taking it literally? You must prove why it supposed to be taken metaphorically which is a tough task considering both history and scholarship are against you. Moreover; that means the entire backstory of Iblis is supposed to be taken metaphorically as well; so does the devil even exist then?

No where in any Tafsir corresponding with verses about adam and eve does it indicate that the verses are symbolic. You have no foundation for what you are claiming.


You don't know what you're talking about. :rolleyes:

I know exactly what i'm talking about. For 1400 years Muslims have been believing the Quranic origin story as fact; Evolution has been heavily repressed by Islamic scholars and now magically when evolution is proven beyond a doubt; "hey its symbolic! the Quran is still right!".

Islamic scholarship is not science, though, and many Muslims accept evolution.



Look at those numbers. 62%, 79%, 78%, 67%...

But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. :rolleyes:

It does matter to me; I am delighted that Muslims are accepting Evolution but it still doesn't prove that Islam is compatible with Evolution.

Do I? Thanks for telling me.

You don't? You are both a very rational Muslim and a very bad Muslim (by islamic standards). You might as well take the next inevitable step of rationality and discard Islam altogether like I did.


And it doesn't mean anything that al-Jahiz was a Mutazili. It shows that even before there was so much evidence to back up evolution, Muslims were willing to accept the idea of it because it made sense to them..

It means a lot actually. I wrote a paper on the Mutazili and I along with many others view them as the stars of the Islamic golden age. Even so they were heavily repressed by Al Ghazali and traditional Islamists because of their view that the Quran is not eternal and was only meant as guidelines for the specific time period that it was presented it in. They were cast out as heretics.

@bolded That conclusion does not follow from your premise. Listing a singular Islamic figure that believed in some "form" of evolution and then claiming that "even back then MUSLIMS believed in evolution" is not valid and does not prove your point. Show me an entire sect or population of Muslims believing in evolution in the past or better yet evolution being accepted by some form of authority in the past.




What's futile is discussing with someone whose arguments are so weak that they have to rely on ignorance of Islamic theology. The facts are there, no amount of wishful thinking that Muslims are forced to be creationists will work.

Pray tell why the Prophet did not advise his followers to take the the Islamic genesis as symbolic? Are you telling me that the prophet believed it to be symbolic the ENTIRE time and no one knew until one hundred years ago? There are no facts there or else Islamic scholarship would not be divided on the subject. I am being generous by saying "divided" btw because the consensus among Sunni schools and jurisprudence is that Evolution is wholly inaccurate.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Prove that Muslims have been believing in Evolution all along for the past 1400 years.
I didn't say that. :rolleyes:

I said that Muslims have accepted evolution for as long as it has been known about and even before there was enough evidence to support it, many Muslims accepted the idea because Islam and science should not conflict.

Islamic scholarship and fiqh dictate that it should be taken literally.
I disagree with their findings if so, plus:

Muslim thought on evolution takes a step forward | Salman Hameed | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
NEWS: Muslim leaders urge Islamic community to rethink evolution theory – Omar Shahid
The Deen Institute - Have Muslims Misunderstood Evolution?

How do you judge what is to be taken literally and what is not? Anytime you find out something in the Quran is wrong or not compatible with science; you stop taking it literally? You must prove why it supposed to be taken metaphorically which is a tough task considering both history and scholarship are against you.
Afala ta'qilun? "Will you not use your intellect?" is recorded in the Qur'an multiple times, as early as Surah 2 verse 44.

In addition:

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.​
- Qur'an 3:7

A few examples of Qur'anic metaphors:

O ye who believe! Render not vain your almsgiving by reproach and injury, like him who spendeth his wealth only to be seen of men and believeth not in Allah and the Last Day. His likeness is as the likeness of a rock whereon is dust of earth; a rainstorm smiteth it, leaving it smooth and bare.​
- Qur'an 2:264

The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.​
- Qur'an 2:171

How to judge? Well, that's a lot trickier. Use your sense or ask someone who is more learned.

Moreover; that means the entire backstory of Iblis is supposed to be taken metaphorically as well; so does the devil even exist then?
I don't worry about Iblis; he doesn't play a big role in my life. :p

No where in any Tafsir corresponding with verses about adam and eve does it indicate that the verses are symbolic. You have no foundation for what you are claiming.
You've just shown you have no understTafsir would have nothing to do with evolution being there, because tafsir is about understanding the religious meaning of the story.g of the story.

I know exactly what i'm talking about.
Nope.

For 1400 years Muslims have been believing the Quranic origin story as fact; Evolution has been heavily repressed by Islamic scholars and now magically when evolution is proven beyond a doubt; "hey its symbolic! the Quran is still right!".
Muslims =/= Islam.
Muslims = Human.

You don't? You are both a very rational Muslim and a very bad Muslim (by islamic standards). You might as well take the next inevitable step of rationality and discard Islam altogether like I did.
I don't believe you were ever Muslim simply because of your lack of understanding of Islam. Looking at "WikiIslam" doesn't make you Muslim.

If you were a Muslim, then I'm disappointed with your knowledge of Islam.

It means a lot actually.
Nope.

Pray tell why the Prophet did not advise his followers to take the the Islamic genesis as symbolic?
Why would he?

I've left the rest off because a) I don't presume to speak for Muhammad, b) you've repeated the same load of bollocks all over again.
 

Oz-Man

Member
I didn't say that. :rolleyes:

I said that Muslims have accepted evolution for as long as it has been known about and even before there was enough evidence to support it, many Muslims accepted the idea because Islam and science should not conflict.

You make these crazy outlandish claims with no evidence whatsoever. Islam and Science do conflict; the Quran supports the Adam and Eve mythology and Science supports Evolution.


I disagree with their findings if so, plus:

Who are you to disagree with Islamic scholarship? Are you an Islamic scholar? Do you presume to be more knowledgeable about Islam than Islamic scholars? NO? Then you have no say whether Islam accepts Evolution or not.


Afala ta'qilun? "Will you not use your intellect?" is recorded in the Qur'an multiple times, as early as Surah 2 verse 44.

Oh so everyone should just use their own intellect and interpret things as they like? I guess those suicide bombers are in the right then;)

How to judge? Well, that's a lot trickier. Use your sense or ask someone who is more learned.

Lmao. Contradictory much? Someone who is more learned would be Islamic scholars and the vast majority of them deny Evolution.

I don't worry about Iblis; he doesn't play a big role in my life. :p

So you don't even believe the devil exists lol? His entire story was a metaphor? haha this is gold.

You've just shown you have no understTafsir would have nothing to do with evolution being there, because tafsir is about understanding the religious meaning of the story.g of the story.

Actually it seems that I as an Atheist ex-Muslim am more knowledgeable than you who claim to be a Muslim. A Tafsir isn't only about understanding the "religious meaning" of the story; it also provides as a commentary that further elaborates on verses and none of them have indicated that the Islamic genesis was symbolic. You along with a handful of Muslims make those outlandish claims while Islamic scholarship looks at you guys as heretics.


Muslims =/= Islam.
Muslims = Human.

Does your omniscient God care that little about the knowledge of his followers? He purposefully deluded Muslims for 1400 years by giving them some fake backstory about Adam and Eve and then BOOM about 1200 years later; "just kidding it was all metaphorical!". So then are all the prophets stories metaphorical? hahahaha

I don't believe you were ever Muslim simply because of your lack of understanding of Islam. Looking at "WikiIslam" doesn't make you Muslim.

If you were a Muslim, then I'm disappointed with your knowledge of Islam.

"My" lack of understanding of Islam? Are you kidding me? Are you a prophet of Islam? Do you have more authority than Islamic scholars? have you studied Islamic theology? No? Then stop making ridiculous statements like evolution is compatible with Islam when Islamic authority completely rules it out.
 

Oz-Man

Member
Anyways; i've entertained your line of reasoning for some time now. Its time to end it using facts.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:543


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall."
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:544

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib(lulwut?), and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely." Sahih Bukhari 4:55:548

Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Whenever a person is murdered unjustly, there is a share from the burden of the crime on the first son of Adam for he was the first to start the tradition of murdering."
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:552

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection the Believers will assemble and say, 'Let us ask somebody to intercede for us with our Lord.' So they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the father of all the people, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you, and taught you the names of all things; so please intercede for us with your Lord, so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this (i.e. intercession for you).' Then Adam will remember his sin and feel ashamed thereof. He will say, 'Go to Noah, for he was the first Apostle, Allah sent to the inhabitants of the earth.' Sahih Bukhari 6:60:3


There are much much more where this came from.....

"deeerpppp its symbbooolliiccc"
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Islam and Science do conflict; the Quran supports the Adam and Eve mythology and Science supports Evolution.
As you mentioned, the word is myth.

Oh so everyone should just use their own intellect and interpret things as they like? I guess those suicide bombers are in the right then;)
Nope. This goes against the Qur'an.

Someone who is more learned would be Islamic scholars and the vast majority of them deny Evolution.
Even if this was true (and evidence goes against you), so what? Most Islamic scholars are not biologists.

So you don't even believe the devil exists lol? His entire story was a metaphor? haha this is gold.
It depends how you understand 'devil'. To me, 'the devil' is human ego and base instincts.

You along with a handful of Muslims make those outlandish claims
Check the numbers again.

while Islamic scholarship looks at you guys as heretics.
who_cares.png


"My" lack of understanding of Islam? [...] Then stop making ridiculous statements like evolution is compatible with Islam when Islamic authority completely rules it out.
Yep. Your complete lack of understanding of Islam.
An understanding of Islam that averages around that of a six year old's.

But I'm not surprised. I never am with anti-religionists.
And I still don't believe you were Muslim. Sorry. I expect an ex-Muslim to have at least a basic understanding of the religion. Getting your information off answering-islam and WikiIslam and rejecting it doesn't count as you being a Muslim. I know this is the internet and you can pretend to be anything you want, but sometimes you have to do some of your own research to look credible.

"deeerpppp its symbbooolliiccc"
OH WOW U R 2 EDGY 4 ME BRO :bow: U R SO KOOL

Pulease. Go study what mythology actually means, then come back. Otherwise:

giveadamn.gif
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Anyways; i've entertained your line of reasoning for some time now. Its time to end it using facts.













There are much much more where this came from.....

"deeerpppp its symbbooolliiccc"

You are aware these hadith just confirm mythical superstition and are entirely defunct right?
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
You make these crazy outlandish claims with no evidence whatsoever. Islam and Science do conflict; the Quran supports the Adam and Eve mythology and Science supports Evolution.

Who are you to disagree with Islamic scholarship? Are you an Islamic scholar? Do you presume to be more knowledgeable about Islam than Islamic scholars? NO? Then you have no say whether Islam accepts Evolution or not.

Oh so everyone should just use their own intellect and interpret things as they like? I guess those suicide bombers are in the right then;)


This is entirely false. Many Muslims have translated the Qur'an with help of tafsir and ahadith because they know no better.

The Qur'an specifically states the biogenesis of man and his evolution. This was not found out till later in history though.

For example

سُوۡرَةُ نُوح

"مَا لَـكُمۡ لَا تَرۡجُوۡنَ لِلّٰهِ وَقَارًا* ۚ‏ وَقَدۡ خَلَقَكُمۡ اَطۡوَارًا‏ اَلَمۡ تَرَوۡا كَيۡفَ خَلَقَ اللّٰهُ سَبۡعَ سَمٰوٰتٍ طِبَاقًا ۙ‏ وَّجَعَلَ الۡقَمَرَ فِيۡهِنَّ نُوۡرًا ۙ وَّجَعَلَ الشَّمۡسَ سِرَاجًا‏ وَاللّٰهُ اَنۡۢبَتَكُمۡ مِّنَ الۡاَرۡضِ نَبَاتًا ۙ‏ ثُمَّ يُعِيۡدُكُمۡ فِيۡهَا وَيُخۡرِجُكُمۡ اِخۡرَاجًا‏"

The word we are studying is أَطۡوَارًا/at'war'ran. It's definition is used as stages but specifically it refer to a pillar of rising. Essentially like a graph. The upright evolution of mankind is indeed mentioned in the Qur'an. What is called Adam and Eve are nothing but the very first of our kind.

Surat Ghafir mentions our very own genesis from earth I may add and the later reproduction of mankind through sperm(sexual intercourse). So to say the Qur'an is unscientific is quite ignorant :D.

Also the creation of the earth in accordance to Allah. Allah views it as six days but we view it as thousands. Nothing occurred instantly in six days.

Our perception of time is nothing like Allah's. Hundreds, Thousands, and millions of years are just days for he who is eternal :yes:.

Surat as-Sajdah ayah 5

"He arranges matters from the heaven to the earth, and then it ascends to Him in a day which is equivalent to one thousand of the years which you count."
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
This is entirely false. Many Muslims have translated the Qur'an with help of tafsir and ahadith because they know no better.

The Qur'an specifically states the biogenesis of man and his evolution. This was not found out till later in history though.

For example

سُوۡرَةُ نُوح

"مَا لَـكُمۡ لَا تَرۡجُوۡنَ لِلّٰهِ وَقَارًا* ۚ‏ وَقَدۡ خَلَقَكُمۡ اَطۡوَارًا‏ اَلَمۡ تَرَوۡا كَيۡفَ خَلَقَ اللّٰهُ سَبۡعَ سَمٰوٰتٍ طِبَاقًا ۙ‏ وَّجَعَلَ الۡقَمَرَ فِيۡهِنَّ نُوۡرًا ۙ وَّجَعَلَ الشَّمۡسَ سِرَاجًا‏ وَاللّٰهُ اَنۡۢبَتَكُمۡ مِّنَ الۡاَرۡضِ نَبَاتًا ۙ‏ ثُمَّ يُعِيۡدُكُمۡ فِيۡهَا وَيُخۡرِجُكُمۡ اِخۡرَاجًا‏"

The word we are studying is أَطۡوَارًا/at'war'ran. It's definition is used as stages but specifically it refer to a pillar of rising. Essentially like a graph. The upright evolution of mankind is indeed mentioned in the Qur'an. What is called Adam and Eve are nothing but the very first of our kind.

Surat Ghafir mentions our very own genesis from earth I may add and the later reproduction of mankind through sperm(sexual intercourse). So to say the Qur'an is unscientific is quite ignorant :D.

Also the creation of the earth in accordance to Allah. Allah views it as six days but we view it as thousands. Nothing occurred instantly in six days.

Our perception of time is nothing like Allah's. Hundreds, Thousands, and millions of years are just days for he who is eternal :yes:.

Surat as-Sajdah ayah 5

"He arranges matters from the heaven to the earth, and then it ascends to Him in a day which is equivalent to one thousand of the years which you count."

yes there is a evolution in the creation of God, i just want to represent an idea of creation , but my level of language fail me :(

yes, there is different between the day of earth, and the day of Allah .
 

Oz-Man

Member
As you mentioned, the word is myth.


Nope. This goes against the Qur'an.




But I'm not surprised. I never am with anti-religionists.
And I still don't believe you were Muslim. Sorry. I expect an ex-Muslim to have at least a basic understanding of the religion. Getting your information off answering-islam and WikiIslam and rejecting it doesn't count as you being a Muslim. I know this is the internet and you can pretend to be anything you want, but sometimes you have to do some of your own research to look credible.

You didn't retort a single one of my points; you've only proven your own lack of understanding about Islam. This debate is like an amateur biologist telling me that certified biologists are wrong. You are not an Islamic scholar. The vast majority of Islamic scholars are in consensus that Evolution is contradictory with Islam and yet I lack understanding for taking their views OVER yours? Pray tell what makes YOU more certified than an Islamic scholar. Why are you more credible? Why should Muslims believe you over people who have actually studied the material and are in a better position to analyze it?

and btw; there is no such a thing as an "anti-religionist". Speaking of 6 years old lmao


You are aware these hadith just confirm mythical superstition and are entirely defunct right?

Proof? Evidence? Are you an Islamic scholar? No? Then why should I believe you over Islamic scholars?

I love that you guys think that your knowledge is superior to Islamic scholars but for the same reason I won't believe a random mechanic over an evolutionary biologist; I won't believe a random Muslim over an Islamic scholar.

The word we are studying is أَطۡوَارًا/at'war'ran. It's definition is used as stages but specifically it refer to a pillar of rising. Essentially like a graph. The upright evolution of mankind is indeed mentioned in the Qur'an. What is called Adam and Eve are nothing but the very first of our kind.

Wow what an extremely vague and unconvincing quote from the Quran. There are NUMEROUS quotes on Adam and Eve (none indicating that they are symbolic) and ONE very VAGUE quote that slightly mentions Evolution but because SCIENCE now supports Evolution; Muslims are quick to try to defend the Quran at ALL COSTS.:facepalm:

Surat Ghafir mentions our very own genesis from earth I may add and the later reproduction of mankind through sperm(sexual intercourse). So to say the Qur'an is unscientific is quite ignorant .

Its extremely unscientific.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib(lulwut?), and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely." Sahih Bukhari 4:55:548

lol let me guess; this is supposed to symbolic too? :clap
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
Proof? Evidence? Are you an Islamic scholar? No? Then why should I believe you over Islamic scholars?

Many scholars disregard hadiths all the time. Almost all fractures within Islam come from which hadith are valid, some like Shia disregard entire books of ahadith by Sunnis.
Hadiths are utterly worthless if nobody places the Qur'an first. Anything from a hadith should be taken with a purely skeptical point of view.


I love that you guys think that your knowledge is superior to Islamic scholars but for the same reason I won't believe a random mechanic over an evolutionary biologist; I won't believe a random Muslim over an Islamic scholar.

I have actually debated an Islamic scholar..... quite fun. Most Muslims have knowledge more cmparible with a scholar simply because of the fact that more then enough preach bias messages stemming from their own agendas.

DO you really wish of me to show all of the videos of Shaykhs and Muftis spouting contradictory and hateful messages? The list is infinite.

A sufi says wife beating is wrong while another says it is right. Both use Qur'an or hadith to come to such a conclusion and some use neither.

You think scholars are knowledgeable? Plenty of Muslims have been laughing at them for centuries :biglaugh:.

Wow what an extremely vague and unconvincing quote from the Quran. There are NUMEROUS quotes on Adam and Eve (none indicating that they are symbolic) and ONE very VAGUE quote that slightly mentions Evolution but because SCIENCE now supports Evolution; Muslims are quick to try to defend the Quran at ALL COSTS.:facepalm:

I do not believe in symbology and I never made a single reference stating they were symbolic. Please apply common sense when reading my messages.

Its extremely unscientific.

So you deny evolution and the genesis of life? That means you are a creationist.

So to get things straight, your approach is to deny everything a god-beleiving individual says simply because you do not want to agree with them? :facepalm:
lol let me guess; this is supposed to symbolic too? :clap

That is from a hadith. It is entirely irrelevant.

Why on earth would you quote something I specifically said is null? Has it not occurred to you to actually use the Qur'an

Also there is no symbolism used in my understanding of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is overly clear on what is metaphorical and symbolic. I cannot change the meaning of it.
 

Oz-Man

Member
Many scholars disregard hadiths all the time. Almost all fractures within Islam come from which hadith are valid, some like Shia disregard entire books of ahadith by Sunnis.
Hadiths are utterly worthless if nobody places the Qur'an first. Anything from a hadith should be taken with a purely skeptical point of view.

So then I take it that you are not Sunni? The Hadith is integral for the Sunni sect and as you already know; the Sunni sect is the most dominant Islamic sect. I am well aware that Hadiths are often under contention. This is why I only posted "Sahih" Hadiths; hadiths that are considered "authentic" in the Sunni Islamic realm.



I have actually debated an Islamic scholar..... quite fun.
Most Muslims have knowledge more cmparible with a scholar
simply because of the fact that more then enough preach bias messages stemming from their own agendas.

@bolded Citation required.

I am well aware of the biases but they are usually "religious" biases so they don't really apply here. Its like somebody telling me that most french people have more knowledge than French historians on France because French historians preach bias......

btw, i'm not referring to the local mullah when I say religious "scholar". I am referring to Muslims that have actually credentials on theology from a university.

DO you really wish of me to show all of the videos of Shaykhs and Muftis spouting contradictory and hateful messages? The list is infinite.

I guarantee you that the majority will have no credentials to their title.


You think scholars are knowledgeable? Plenty of Muslims have been laughing at them for centuries :biglaugh:.

Again, citation required.



So you deny evolution and the genesis of life? That means you are a creationist.

Nah, Islam in accordance with Sunni scholarship denies Human evolution. If you are not a Sunni; then we are wasting our time here.

So to get things straight, your approach is to deny everything a god-beleiving individual says simply because you do not want to agree with them? :facepalm:

Nah. I am debating under the impression that you and Odion are Sunni Muslims. If you guys are not Sunni Muslims; then forgive me for my hasty generalization. If you guys are Sunni Muslims; then I believe you and Odion to be in the wrong when claiming that Islam supports Evolution.


That is from a hadith. It is entirely irrelevant.

It is from a "Sahih" Hadith.

Why on earth would you quote something I specifically said is null? Has it not occurred to you to actually use the Qur'an

I'm sorry friend but you do not get to dictate with is Null.

Also there is no symbolism used in my understanding of the Qur'an. The Qur'an is overly clear on what is metaphorical and symbolic. I cannot change the meaning of it.

I highly doubt that. It seems to me Muslims try to use this to their advantage as do adherents of other religious faiths.

Something that is in line with modern western thought and science is not to be taken symbolically; something that is contrary must be taken symbolically. A mere ploy but then again; the adherents are only fooling themselves.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
You didn't retort a single one of my points;
I did. Maybe if you paid attention.

you've only proven your own lack of understanding about Islam. This debate is like an amateur biologist telling me that certified biologists are wrong.
Actually, what has been proven is you don't know what you're talking about and don't like that you can't pigeonhole religious folk. If it's different, call it insincere or ignore it.

and btw; there is no such a thing as an "anti-religionist".
Uh, yeah there is. And you fit it.

Again, see the above.
 

Oz-Man

Member
Actually, what has been proven is you don't know what you're talking about and don't like that you can't pigeonhole religious folk. If it's different, call it insincere or ignore it.

"derppp i know more than Islamic scholars and you don't know anything about Islam because you are holding their opinion over mine derppppppp"

Antireligion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


For further clarification

Uh, yeah there is. And you fit it.

Again, see the above.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

Both of you seemed to overlook the fact that I was referring to the "grammar"

There is no such a thing as a "religionist" or an "anti-religionist". That doesn't make sense.
 
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