4000 year old Mesopotamian Ark story

[outhouse]

Here is an article with more information. The how to build an Ark info is very interesting.


Mosaic Magazine - How to Build an Ark

That article was much better.

Confirms it was a Atra-hasis version.


Not quite the origin, but quite the insight with "two by two"

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Yes it does, but as usual, how do all the critters fit in that? And how did the ones on other continents get there? What did the ones not from the desert eat while trekking towards the Ark?


Inquiring minds want to know?



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To play the devil's advocate here (I myself do not believe it) but I always thought it was good to view it in the way showing to detail God's advanceness compared to human's small understanding; as if this ark were actually a water vehicle hosting a DNA bank and back then it simply seemed like an ark to the small understanding of humans.

DNA of every male and female species on the planet.

 

[gnostic]

Wouldn't it be more useful and constructive to discuss a renovation to chronology and the development of Near Eastern religion instead of contrasting it with the Bible?
That Mesopotamian traditions are found in the Hebrew Bible is not a novelty, nor does it diminishes to potency of Biblical literature, including literature which echoes more primal traditions which circulated in the region.

No, you're right. I don't think it doesn't diminish the potency.

If anything, it actually enhanced Genesis' standing.

However, I think people, religious or not, should recognize where the Noah's story originate. The Mesopotamian Flood, whether it be Sumerian, Akkadian or Babylonian, all predate Genesis' Flood, centuries before the Genesis was ever compose.

The survival of those clay tablets are certainly evidences to show which are older of the two.

 

[gnostic]

at least now we wont have to hear, "the gilgamesh epic is older then the bible and thats where the jews got their story of a flood from"

now we'll hear "the Mesopotamia tablet, which is older then Gilgamesh epic, which is older then bible, and thats where the jews got their story of a flood from"

Yay for archaeology

Sumerian tablets of Gilgamesh's poems, that predate the Akkadian/Old Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh, are themselves Mesopotamian, Pegg.

One of those (Sumerian) tablets, mentioned the Flood and Ziusudra, by name.

'In those days,] in those far-off days,
[in those nights,] in those far-off nights,
after [the assembly] had made the Deluge sweep over,
so we could destroy the seed of mankind,
in our midst a single man still lived,
Ziusudra, one of mankind, still lived!
From that time we swore by the life of heaven and the life of earth,
from that time we swore that mankind should not have life eternal.

Ziusudra was the original flood hero in the Sumerian literature, and reappeared as Atrahasis in Akkadian and Old Babylonian literature, and as Uta-napishti in Late Babylonian.

In this Sumerian poem, it linked the Gilgamesh's story to Ziusudra. The Sumerian Eridu Genesis and the Akkadian Epic of Atrahasis are independent to the Gilagmesh legend.

Earlier in the poem, we learn the reason why Bilgames had visited Ziusudra:

'...having founded the temples of the gods,
you reached Ziusudra in his abode!
The rites of Sumer, forgotten there since the distant days of old,
the rituals and customs - it was you brought them down to the land.
The rites of hand-washing and mouth-washing you put in good order,
[after the] Deluge it was you made known all the tasks of the land...'

Gilgamesh brought back the customs and rituals of hand-washing and mouth-washing from Ziusudra; the rites were forgotten since the days of Flood.

Sources:

Ziusudra:

The Death of Bilgames, p 199, The Epic of Gilagmesh: A New Translation, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Classics, 1999.

The Death of Gilgames, The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL).

The Flood Story (also known by another name - the Eridu Genesis), The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL).


Atrahasis:

The Epic of Atrahasis, pp 9-35, Myths From Mesopotamia, Stephanie Dalley, Oxford World's Classics, 1989.


Uta-napishti:

Tablet 11, pp 88-99, The Standard Version of Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic, The Epic of Gilagmesh: A New Translation, translated by Andrew George, Penguin Classics, 1999.
​

 

[Caladan]

No, you're right. I don't think it doesn't diminish the potency.

If anything, it actually enhanced Genesis' standing. Genesis' Flood.

However, I think people, religious or not, should recognize where the Noah's story originate. The Mesopotamian Flood, whether it be Sumerian, Akkadian or Babylonian, all predate Genesis' Flood, centuries before the Genesis was ever compose.

The survival of those clay tablets are certainly evidences to show which are older of the two.

Personally I find it to be a downgraded scholarship, even on the lay people level as it assumes and popularize ignorance usually from the very beginning. It's the same repeating mind numbing trend to associate every ancient near eastern discovery with the Bible and Biblical personas.
This particular source is actually quite OK in this regard as it doesn't derail this method, as implied by the OP as if the point is that the story originated in ancient Mesopotamia and not in the Bible. The article focuses on technicalities of building an ark/boat rather than sensationalizing the argument of which came first, Mesopotamian clay tablets or Biblical literature which is only one component and even as a component deserves a more serious treatment than claiming B took the story from A. We are dealing with diffusion of ideas in the ANE, and even with demographic changes in the region such as the Babylonian exile as the article offers.

 

[Quirkybird]

Obviously the Noah and his flood, as told in the Bible is not in the least bit credible. There was probably a devastating flood in the region, and the author of the story used that as the basis for their fantasy tale.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Obviously the Noah and his flood, as told in the Bible is not in the least bit credible. There was probably a devastating flood in the region, and the author of the story used that as the basis for their fantasy tale.

Isn't it wonderful that you were there to witness all that? How else could you be so sure?

 

[Quirkybird]

Isn't it wonderful that you were there to witness all that? How else could you be so sure?

Oh come on, a global flood, for which there is no evidence, and Noah housing two of every kind of animal on earth is the stuff of fantasy, NOT reality! How was the guy supposed to have collected and housed all those animals, for a start? The story is crazy! Besides which the deity would be the worst kind of psycho to have killed off all the rest of the humans and animals in the world!

 

[gnostic]

I like to read the actual translation than the brief description that this article has given?

Are there any translation out ther of this "new tablet"?

Where was it found? And in what language was the written in?

 

[outhouse]

Isn't it wonderful that you were there to witness all that? How else could you be so sure?

Its not even up for debate.


There was a attested flood on the Euphrates 2900BC that probably started all the flod legends, first with Ziusudra who was also on th ekown kings list.

 

[outhouse]

I like to read the actual translation than the brief description that this article has given?

Are there any translation out ther of this "new tablet"?

Where was it found? And in what language was the written in?

Thisis the best link to what is out. It has the language, and where I beleive. very vague though.

Mosaic Magazine - How to Build an Ark


I was waiting for you, figured you already knew all this and would clue us in.

 

[Alceste]

Isn't it wonderful that you were there to witness all that? How else could you be so sure?

How can you be sure Santa Claus doesn't visit the home of every child on earth in a single night? The people who wrote that tale didn't know of the existence of at least four continents, let alone the millions of species that live only on those continents.

The flood story, like Santa's magical night, is impossible. That's how we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's fictional without observing it first hand.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The flood story, like Santa's magical night, is impossible. That's how we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's fictional without observing it first hand.

Nothing is impossible to the unfettered imagination.

 

[outhouse]

Personally I find it to be a downgraded scholarship, even on the lay people level as it assumes and popularize ignorance usually from the very beginning. It's the same repeating mind numbing trend to associate every ancient near eastern discovery with the Bible and Biblical personas.
This particular source is actually quite OK in this regard as it doesn't derail this method, as implied by the OP as if the point is that the story originated in ancient Mesopotamia and not in the Bible. The article focuses on technicalities of building an ark/boat rather than sensationalizing the argument of which came first, Mesopotamian clay tablets or Biblical literature which is only one component and even as a component deserves a more serious treatment than claiming B took the story from A. We are dealing with diffusion of ideas in the ANE, and even with demographic changes in the region such as the Babylonian exile as the article offers.

You have one major problem I think trumps your concerns.

Biblical inerrancy

I think biblical inerrancy perverts the scholarships much more so


Just my opinion though

 

[Alceste]

Nothing is impossible to the unfettered imagination.

Amazing, but true.

 

[Caladan]

You have one major problem I think trumps your concerns.

Biblical inerrancy

I think biblical inerrancy perverts the scholarships much more so


Just my opinion though

It doesn't pervert scholarship, but it promotes pseudo-scholarship. Both of the religious and the irreligious kind as often displayed on this forum as it keeps people too lazy from actual high standard study.

 

[outhouse]

. Both of the religious and the irreligious kind as often displayed on this forum as it keeps people too lazy from actual high standard study.

Sadly, this website really doesnt deal the finer points of scholarship.

 

[Ingledsva]

I like to read the actual translation than the brief description that this article has given?

Are there any translation out ther of this "new tablet"?

Where was it found? And in what language was the written in?

One of the translators has written a book. It is listed on this site -


Mosaic Magazine - How to Build an Ark




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[gnostic]

I was waiting for you, figured you already knew all this and would clue us in.

I didn't know about this "round" ark tablet until yesterday afternoon, when I saw this thread.

I don't often look at internet news or look at magazine articles. Heck, I don't even pick up the newspapers anymore and I barely watch tv in the last 5 or 6 months. When I do get on the internet, like now, I don't search for news or current affairs.

So any recent discoveries, I am pretty much in the dark.

 

[gnostic]

Thank you Ingledsva and Outhouse, for providing the same link.

I'd still prefer to read the (translated) text myself.

I am not really interested in buying his book, not unless he has good and complete translations of Eridu Genesis, of the Epic of Atrahasis and of the epic of Gilgamesh (tablet XI), so I can compare these narratives against Finkel's translation of his ArkTablet.