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7 players stand out of gay pride game

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Seeing advertising logos came as a bit of a shock to me when I first saw them. They do not exist on US pro sports teams. Well except for soccer.

bengals-uniforms-getty-ftr-041921_18k25plr8871m1mkdtsa7fh0hb.jpg


When it comes to the NFL you will see a Nike swoosh on the uniforms, but that is because Nike has the contract to make them. I am pretty sure that they pay for the privilege. They can sell exorbitantly overpriced gear at their own stores.

NASCAR is another matter entirely. And if a winning driver is interviewed he will try to get off the name of all of the sponsors in one long sentence:

brandeis-ragan.jpg


The drivers are heavily decked out too:

jeff-gordon-dupont-3_4.jpg

The NBA has them, albeit as a new thing.
They're controlled in size, which is similar to the AFL here (picture above somewhere)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yep. That was all me: allowing corporate sponsorship of professional sport. o_O

Anyhow, as fun as it is to watch you get all unhinged, this would be a good time to come back to the topic of the thread, which is about how a group of players who wore all of these jerseys without complaint this season:

View attachment 64932 View attachment 64934 View attachment 64935

View attachment 64933

...found something disagreeable with this jersey in particular:
View attachment 64936
That's just sad, and embarrassing. And it isn't going to stop. That 'ad-creep' is like a contagion. And the more annoying it gets, the more annoying it wants to become. Because the advertisers will happily annoy the crap out of all of us just to make us look and listen to their lies.

When I was visiting Australia I was very impressed to see that some of the Sidney suburbs had banned advertising billboards. That along with the fact that their power transmission was underground instead of across thousands of poles sticking out of the ground made for a really beautiful and pleasant visual landscape. It was almost shocking returning to the U.S. and the horribly ugly visual landscape ruled by corporate advertising allowed to run amok here. But greed poisons everything and everyone it touches. Even in the land of Oz.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
There was no "promoting homosexuality". I think you may have more than just a touch of homophobia yourself. And every racist out there seems to claim that they have black friends. When a homophobe tries to justify his claims with 'I have gay friends' I don't give that claim very much credibility.

Inclusivity is good and gays should be included and not be excluded in any way.
Some people see homosexual acts as wrong however and do not want to promote the sin, even while loving the sinner.
"Pride jersey" does not speak of inclusivity imo and inclusivity may not be how this whole thing was put to the team. The Manly Sea Eagles officials have taken some responsibility for the whole thing after all.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It can only mean homophobia. There is no other reason for such a reaction. It's hateful, bigoted, and destructive.

I'll agree that the vector of the homophobia might not feel hatred in the sense of being angry or wanting to harm gay people. Many are passive vectors of the homophobia of their church. Some call this soft bigotry, as when somebody thinks they're being loving by not wanting their daughters to go to college or not expecting as much out their black student. It's not active hatred in the sense of a red or even a negative feeling. It can be delivered with a sincere smile. But it's somebody's bigotry now being spread by another who may not feel hatred.

Haven't you considered that there are Christians who believe homosexual acts are wrong and do not want to be seen to be promoting that.
Maybe it is hatred and bigotry to be calling those people hateful and bigoted.
Those players are just following their conscience and you do not know their personal feelings about homosexuals.

Ask yourself why you don't consider saying that gay people are an abomination to a good god homophobia. What would one need to add to that to make it homophobia for you? An explicit statement of hatred, like Westboro Baptist Church? "God hates f*gs"? I'd say that that's pretty close to scripture already.

We are not talking about people who have said that gay people are an abomination to the God. You seem to want to put words in their mouth and my mouth and I think in the mouth of God also.
God does not consider homosexuals an abomination, He considers homosexual acts an abomination.
Maybe the people of the Westboro Baptist Church are bigots.
There is a big problem in Christian Churches at the moment and it threatens to divide many denominations. Some leaders want to bless gay marriages and others see it as going against God's message in the Bible.
It has nothing to do with bigotry but with an attitude to the Bible.
But of course some who don't want to bless gay marriages are bigoted and some who want to bless gay marriages are probably so liberal about the Bible that they aren't Christians any more.
It is certainly an emotive topic and produces polarisation/division and a lack of willingness to hear the other side of the debate. This is what happens in the Christians Church and it can be 10 times worse when the discussion is between Christians and atheists.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Inclusivity is good and gays should be included and not be excluded in any way.
Some people see homosexual acts as wrong however and do not want to promote the sin, even while loving the sinner.
"Pride jersey" does not speak of inclusivity imo and inclusivity may not be how this whole thing was put to the team. The Manly Sea Eagles officials have taken some responsibility for the whole thing after all.
There is part of your problem. There is no inherent sin to homosexual acts. Either Christians misunderstand their Bible or their God is evil. In neither of those cases does that mean that homosexuals are the ones that are sinning.

There is no "right to be a jerk". One can have one's opinion about homosexuality, but that is not an excuse. Do you realize that these people signed a contract saying that they would wear the team jersey? They knew that all sorts of sponsors put their logos on jerseys. One is perfectly welcome to wear a Ford jersey as a professional athlete and still only by Chevrolets. That is not being a hypocrite by that athlete. There is no requirement to engage in any activity or buy a product of a sponsor. And when one points out that one should not discriminate against gay people unfairly that is not "supporting homosexuality".

You may not realize this, but your answers here all appear to be rather homophobic.

Tell me why do you think that a Pride Jersey does not speak of inclusivity?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Inclusivity is good and gays should be included and not be excluded in any way.
Some people see homosexual acts as wrong however and do not want to promote the sin, even while loving the sinner.
"Pride jersey" does not speak of inclusivity imo and inclusivity may not be how this whole thing was put to the team. The Manly Sea Eagles officials have taken some responsibility for the whole thing after all.
Pride symbolism is inclusive of everyone but bigots.

Personally, I'm fine with excluding bigotry. We should be able to not promote the sin of bigotry, even while loving the sinner.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Haven't you considered that there are Christians who believe homosexual acts are wrong and do not want to be seen to be promoting that.

Considered it? I know it for a fact.

Maybe it is hatred and bigotry to be calling those people hateful and bigoted.

It's not. They're bigots. I define bigotry as the irrational and destructive mischaracterization of a demographic people because they belong to that demographic, such as gay, black, Jewish, etc.. That defines the athletes, but not my comment. The athletes' opinion is irrational (based in religious faith and not reason applied to evidence), it is hurtful and destructive, and it applies every homosexual person just for being homosexual. By contrast, my opinion is defensible, is constructive (attempts to remedy a problem), and applies only to people that hold and express those ideas.

Those players are just following their conscience and you do not know their personal feelings about homosexuals.

Irrelevant. As I've explained, they're vectors of hatred whether they feel the hatred or not, what I called cold bigotry, the bigotry of well-meaning condescension and lowered expectations.

We are not talking about people who have said that gay people are an abomination to the God. God does not consider homosexuals an abomination, He considers homosexual acts an abomination.

A distinction without a difference. The consequences for the homosexual community are the same.

Maybe the people of the Westboro Baptist Church are bigots.

From a gay person's perspective, how are those people different from the athletes apart from being more vulgar, and that they don't make the distinction between "God hates f*gs" and "God loves gays, but hates what they do"? Please think about that. Why should critics of either of these ideas consider one bigotry but not the other.

I understand why Christians who have been taught that homosexuality is sin don't want to be thought of as homophobes or even vectors for homophobia. But they perpetuate the bigotry whether they feel hatred or not. The secular community would like the Christian community to reconsider what it says and does, and if it is not interested, will be judged for that by humanist standards and values, not the Christian's.

While it would be nice if the religious community would voluntarily keep its homophobic values to itself if it can't transcend them, it is not expected. Since the present Christian message and its effect is not acceptable by the reckoning of enlightenment values, and since the secular community knows to expect no changes or concessions from the religious community, then the proper response is to publicly condemn and reject those values. What other choice is there but to be silent, which is off the table?

These are culture wars between incompatible worldviews. The church will continue to attempt to dictate societal mores, but now, they will have to do so in the modern milieu, where dissenting voices are at last being heard thanks to a variety of factors that have leveled the playing field. Now, Christian values are competing with humanist values. It's no surprise that what the one calls love, the other calls bigotry, nor that the one would object to that designation. It doesn't matter. Nor should it.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
We are not talking about people who have said that gay people are an abomination to the God. You seem to want to put words in their mouth and my mouth and I think in the mouth of God also.
Putting words in the mouth of God seems more of your thing:

God does not consider homosexuals an abomination, He considers homosexual acts an abomination.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There is part of your problem. There is no inherent sin to homosexual acts. Either Christians misunderstand their Bible or their God is evil. In neither of those cases does that mean that homosexuals are the ones that are sinning.

It is not really about your beliefs about the Bible, it is about the beliefs of the players in question and whether they can be forced to do what is against their conscience.

There is no "right to be a jerk". One can have one's opinion about homosexuality, but that is not an excuse. Do you realize that these people signed a contract saying that they would wear the team jersey? They knew that all sorts of sponsors put their logos on jerseys. One is perfectly welcome to wear a Ford jersey as a professional athlete and still only by Chevrolets. That is not being a hypocrite by that athlete. There is no requirement to engage in any activity or buy a product of a sponsor. And when one points out that one should not discriminate against gay people unfairly that is not "supporting homosexuality".

You may not realize this, but your answers here all appear to be rather homophobic.

Tell me why do you think that a Pride Jersey does not speak of inclusivity?

There is no sponsor advertising in the gay pride stripes, sponsor advertising does not really have anything to do with it.
The name "pride jersey" has associations with the gay pride march held yearly in Sydney. That is not about inclusivity. If the jerseys had just said something about inclusivity of gays then maybe the players would have been OK with it.
But really it is a matter between the club and the players and the club are fine with it.
It has shown the hate of some people towards the rights of Christians to follow their conscience however.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Enlighten me, then. Please tell me how you'd like to split hairs when it comes to different shades of bigotry.

"bigotry

fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life:

strong, unreasonable ideas, esp. about race or religion:"

"homophobia
  1. dislike of or prejudice against gay people."
I cannot say that the players are bigoted or homophobic but can tell that others, without knowing the full facts, call them homophobic and bigoted, reflects on those people more than on the players.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You ignore Leviticus where it says they should be put to death. Of course he gets humans to do the dirty work.... but still.

God made the laws for His people and wanted to keep them pure and free from homosexual acts. Others sins are also punishable with death, not just homosexuality, and the New Testament also speaks against homosexual acts.
Adulterers for example should be put to death. Bugger, what's wrong with that? The TV shows tell me it is OK and acceptable.
I try not to get my morality from the surrounding popular culture.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
God made the laws for His people and wanted to keep them pure and free from homosexual acts. Others sins are also punishable with death, not just homosexuality, and the New Testament also speaks against homosexual acts.
Adulterers for example should be put to death. Bugger, what's wrong with that? The TV shows tell me it is OK and acceptable.
I try not to get my morality from the surrounding popular culture.

Morality is subjective. How you treat those who have different beliefs is what it boils down too. I consider stoning people who are different to me is wrong as is condeming them to eternal torture so I try not to get my Morality from the bible.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Morality is subjective. How you treat those who have different beliefs is what it boils down too. I consider stoning people who are different to me is wrong as is condeming them to eternal torture so I try not to get my Morality from the bible.

In the OT it is God letting us know what His standards are for His people, Israel.
Outside of that situation God wants us to love people with different beliefs. It is wrong outside of that situation to stone people who are different and to bully them and be prejudiced against them.
God's morality is not subjective but morality can be subjective amongst humans and even though we might know what God's standards are, it is up to God to judge people and I would say He does that with full knowledge of those peoples' standards and with that in mind.
Personally I see God's justice as just, and I do not see eternal torture as a just punishment for anyone.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It's not. They're bigots. I define bigotry as the irrational and destructive mischaracterization of a demographic people because they belong to that demographic, such as gay, black, Jewish, etc.. That defines the athletes, but not my comment. The athletes' opinion is irrational (based in religious faith and not reason applied to evidence), it is hurtful and destructive, and it applies every homosexual person just for being homosexual. By contrast, my opinion is defensible, is constructive (attempts to remedy a problem), and applies only to people that hold and express those ideas.

The athletes did not irrationally and destructively mischaracterise gay people. That is in your head but not the facts.
Why did you not include Christians in your demographic?
What ideas do you say that the players who refused to wear the jersey actually expressed?
I think people have been expressing those ideas for them without knowing what they think and believe.
Do you think that people don't have a right to express their ideas or does that apply only to people who believe homosexual acts are wrong in God's eyes? That says nothing about what they think of homosexuals however.

A distinction without a difference. The consequences for the homosexual community are the same.

I'm sure the homosexual community knows the opinions of some Christians on homosexuality.

From a gay person's perspective, how are those people different from the athletes apart from being more vulgar, and that they don't make the distinction between "God hates f*gs" and "God loves gays, but hates what they do"? Please think about that. Why should critics of either of these ideas consider one bigotry but not the other.

Yes I guess many people find it hard to see the grey areas and just see in black and white. That's understandable, especially if the message on the media is one that is black and white and creates division and hurt.

I understand why Christians who have been taught that homosexuality is sin don't want to be thought of as homophobes or even vectors for homophobia. But they perpetuate the bigotry whether they feel hatred or not. The secular community would like the Christian community to reconsider what it says and does, and if it is not interested, will be judged for that by humanist standards and values, not the Christian's.

Being judged by secular standards is fine. That should not stop a Christian from doing what their conscience dictates, or believing what they see as the Word of God.

While it would be nice if the religious community would voluntarily keep its homophobic values to itself if it can't transcend them, it is not expected. Since the present Christian message and its effect is not acceptable by the reckoning of enlightenment values, and since the secular community knows to expect no changes or concessions from the religious community, then the proper response is to publicly condemn and reject those values. What other choice is there but to be silent, which is off the table?

That is what happens openly and just in the standards promoted in society,,,,,,,,,,,, and those standards are absorbed by children and adults alike, along with the rejection of Biblical standards.
So society promotes standards that are the opposite to God's and many in society thinks that is OK.
So I guess you know that the being silent and being forced to be silent is not seen as good amongst Christians also.

These are culture wars between incompatible worldviews. The church will continue to attempt to dictate societal mores, but now, they will have to do so in the modern milieu, where dissenting voices are at last being heard thanks to a variety of factors that have leveled the playing field. Now, Christian values are competing with humanist values. It's no surprise that what the one calls love, the other calls bigotry, nor that the one would object to that designation. It doesn't matter. Nor should it.

Yes cultural wars between incompatible worldviews. Some in the Church want to dictate societal mores and see it as a war at that level but others in the Church are willing to sit back and be dictated to. I'm one of those.
Of course a democracy has all sorts of people in power, sometimes humanists and at other times religious people and I guess laws reflect that.
 
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