7-year-old transgender child closes down Girl Scout troops

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Olympics are just one example of an area of society in which sex is important, and gender and sex can't be interchangeable. I didn't say anything about the Olympic rules being any sort of authority on how we should view things in other areas of life. Good grief.

Arrgh.

You held up the Olympics as an example of something. Presumably, you were trying to say that they're relevant to this in some way; I think I picked out the most reasonable inference that might be relevant, but if you had something else in mind, please: tell us what you meant. What bearing do the rules of the Olympics have on how society views gender?

But the Bobbys of the world, and those who love them, must accept the fact that when your claimed gender doesn't match your DNA, some situations and choices are going to definitely be limited, just as many other options are limited by physiology. And they should be.

This is irrelevant; membership in a club isn't limited by physiology.

Also, I disagree with your apparent implicit claim that gender (or even sex) is a matter of DNA; it's not a cut-and-dry issue. I've been doing some exploring on this issue lately, and I think the clearest example of this is complete androgen insensitivity syndrome: women who may have a Y chromosome and even produce male sex hormones, but whose bodies do not react to these hormones at all. They're phenotypically female (sometimes even characterized as "hyper-female", since they don't even react to the androgenic hormones that a normal woman has in her system), they can get pregnant and have children, but they can also have a Y chromosome.

My question, as a parent, was legitimate - would a parent have the right to be concerned about whether or not her 12 year old daughter was sharing a tent or a shower with someone who has a penis? Is this appropriate? You are concerned about Bobby's rights - what about the rights of the other kids and the other parents, who have legitimate concerns about intimate situations?

Well, what's the root of the concern?

If it's about sexual activity, then remember: Bobby is a girl. Despite the fact that she has a penis, she's no more likely to have sex with another Scout than any other girl in the troop. In fact, I'd say that the likelihood of another girl acting on a same-sex attraction is much higher than the likelihood of the transgendered girl doing the same thing.

I guess this is your opinion. I guess we'd have to ask an Olympic official about the intent.

Well, obviously you had some sort of intent in mind when you brought up the Olympic rules in the first place; what did you assume it to be?

Why do you think it's just about keeping out "cheaters?" Would Bobby be a "cheater" if she grew up as female, identified as female, was involved in all female groups for years, and then wanted, understandably, to compete as a woman in an Olympic sport?

No, she wouldn't be, but the IOC considers it more appropriate to be overcautious and screen her out than it would be to potentially let in someone who was only pretending to be transgendered.

In the same vein, an athlete who takes a prescription medication that includes an ingredient on the "banned substances" list will be barred from competing even if the medication gave him no performance advantage in his particular case.

You know why they have no way of knowing? Because the definitions and legalities regarding transgendered persons are not consistent and well defined, and the reason why is because each situation is so unique and such a volatile mixture of psychology, sexuality, and physiology.

No, they have no way of knowing because in the past (e.g. the East Germans a few decades ago) actually forced athletes to have gender reassignment surgery and lie about it. Olympic officials aren't psychic; even if they were to detect that the surgery had occurred, they wouldn't be able peer into an athlete's soul and determine with certainty if they're telling the truth about why they got it.

But all of this is moot anyhow, since the hormone therapy that most (all?) transitioned transgendered people take would probably be loaded with stuff on the "banned substance" list anyhow. The question of gender wouldn't even come up, since they'd be excluded based on the drugs they're on anyhow.

And I believe that parents have legitimate concerns regarding their minor childrens' exposure to different SEXES, as well as gender issues.

But you still haven't said why. What's the root fear behind your concern?

And I'm really not sure what you're asking for. I suppose some parents may (irrationally, IMO) not want their child to be around transgendered children. I suppose this can be a reason for that individual parent to pull their kid out of the program, but it seems like you're trying to go one step beyond this and argue that it's a reason to bar the transgendered child from joining in the first place.

Is this what you're saying?

If so, I'd say that the organization should be free to accept whoever it wants, and the parents are free to decide to participate or not on that basis.

Where do you get this idea?

From your analogy: you compared gender to race, which is something that's fixed and can't be changed during a person's life.

If this wasn't your intent, then you're free to explain more clearly what you were driving at with your analogy.

 

[Kathryn]

Arrgh.

Argh back atcha.

Also, I disagree with your apparent implicit claim that gender (or even sex) is a matter of DNA; it's not a cut-and-dry issue. I've been doing some exploring on this issue lately, and I think the clearest example of this is complete androgen insensitivity syndrome: women who may have a Y chromosome and even produce male sex hormones, but whose bodies do not react to these hormones at all. They're phenotypically female (sometimes even characterized as "hyper-female", since they don't even react to the androgenic hormones that a normal woman has in her system), they can get pregnant and have children, but they can also have a Y chromosome.

I've said from the start of this discussion that there are physical anomalies which blur the issue of sex. They are rare, however.

If it's about sexual activity, then remember: Bobby is a girl.

Really? How do you know this? Because Bobby and the mother say so? Children have lots of confusion about gender, especially if the parents encourage certain behaviors, for whatever reason. I am suspect of Bobby's mother's motivations in this case.

I suppose some parents may (irrationally, IMO) not want their child to be around transgendered children. I suppose this can be a reason for that individual parent to pull their kid out of the program, but it seems like you're trying to go one step beyond this and argue that it's a reason to bar the transgendered child from joining in the first place.

Is this what you're saying?

What I'm saying is that the parents of ALL of the children involved have the right to question, get clarification, and make decisions with full knowledge - NOW THAT THE MOTHER HAS MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL about it. I mean, obviously she's not concerned with the privacy issue.

Had the mother never made any sort of deal about her child's gender vs sex, I doubt anyone would have ever had a clue - unless a child noticed something while undressing/sleeping/bathing etc. In which case, I believe that the other parents would have a right to question what the heck was going on.

For the record, I'm not worried about sexual activity and identity at this age, but as we all know, kids grow up and become more curious about sex.

If so, I'd say that the organization should be free to accept whoever it wants, and the parents are free to decide to participate or not on that basis.

Right on. And yes, the parents have a right to an explanation if their daughter comes home questioning why Bobby looks like her little brother when they're changing clothes at a Girl Scout function.

From your analogy: you compared gender to race, which is something that's fixed and can't be changed during a person's life.

Nope. I compared race to sex, not gender.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But the Bobbys of the world, and those who love them, must accept the fact that when your claimed gender doesn't match your DNA, some situations and choices are going to definitely be limited, just as many other options are limited by physiology. And they should be.

My question, as a parent, was legitimate - would a parent have the right to be concerned about whether or not her 12 year old daughter was sharing a tent or a shower with someone who has a penis? Is this appropriate? You are concerned about Bobby's rights - what about the rights of the other kids and the other parents, who have legitimate concerns about intimate situations?

To the first part, there are PLENTY of instances in which even one's birth sex WILL NOT math their chromosomes. Such is the reason genetics can't be used to determine sex, or else there would be alot of women that would suddenly become men over night, just because they have XY chromosomes instead of XX.
For the concerns and rights, what is there honestly to be concerned about? Sure her body may be different, but it's considered terribly rude to make someone who lost a limb feel uncomfortable because of there difference, and I don't see why this should be any different. Peoples bodies are different, and gender is not a simple black-and-white, either-or subject.

You know why they have no way of knowing? Because the definitions and legalities regarding transgendered persons are not consistent and well defined, and the reason why is because each situation is so unique and such a volatile mixture of psychology, sexuality, and physiology.

As I mentioned earlier, the term IS well defined, the terms ARE consistent, and the legalities are only an issue because people hate us. Why else would Texas refuse to acknowledge someone's change from one sex to the other?

Where do you get this idea? What I'm pretty sure of though is that physiologically, sex can be determined. Whether or not people accept the sex they are born with is a whole other matter. And in very rare cases, I do believe that the actual determination of sex can be complicated due to physical anomalies. But those cases are extremely rare and do not coincide well with the ratio of people who have gender identity issues.

Intersexed people are born more frequently than you realize. And you yourself said:

But frankly, I believe that if a person has a penis and testicles, and their DNA/genetic code is male, then they are male. Now - do they have the right to carry themselves or consider themselves as female? Sure they do. That doesn't make them female however.

Sports "questionably?" Sports absolutely. Male and female bodies differ significantly.

Actually in a male-to-female transsexual testosterone levels are very typically lower than a cisgender female. And since levels of estrogen and testosterone are very closely monitored due to health risks (such as blood clots) and hormone therapy regiments being adjusted based on blood levels of hormones, there is practically no chance that a transsexual would have any advantage. A male-to-female will not have enhanced strength from testosterone, and a female-to-male will not have enhanced flexibility like women usually have over men because there muscles will develop like a regular male due the testosterone regiments.

Any group which is based on physical abilities would come to mind (breastfeeding is another, for example). But also - any group in which a parent might safely assume that everyone's genitals are of the same sex. The reason why I keep bringing this up is that I believe it is ANY parents' right to limit their child's exposure to the genitals of the opposite sex (note - not GENDER - SEX), to what they deem as suitable.

Why? We're all born nude, it's the human body in it's most natural form, there are many things we regularly do nude, and young children will often examine the nude body of a play-mate to satisfy there own curiosities about what the other sex looks like, and even to compare to a same-sex play-mate. A child seeing a nude body will not harm them in anyway, unless you tell them how dirty, bad, sinful, and inappropriate it is. And just to throw this out, this is not just my opinion but actual research that has been conducted in the field of human sexuality.

I'd assume that if they looked and acted and dressed like a little girl, they were a little girl. But if I suddenly discovered they had a penis and testicles, I would not let them bathe or shower or sleep in the same bed with my daughters once they hit the preteen age of 8 or so (it's not an issue with toddlers or infants, of course).

Then would you let your daughter bathe or sleep in the same bed with a lesbian friend? But in the case of a MtF if your daughter really sees this person as a female then why worry? It's really no different than our societies immaturity about showing with homosexuals, when there are plenty of places around the globe that have co-ed bathrooms AND showers. But then again these places also tend to not view humans in their natural unclothed state as an abomination.

Frankly, none of us knows whether Bobby is homosexual or heterosexual. We won't know for awhile. Of course, we never know with any kids, but the odds are that most kids are heterosexual. The vast majority of Scouts are heterosexual, meaning that as they mature, most kids in same sex troops won't have to be concerned about same sex overtures or assaults by their fellow troops, or any sort of exposure to sexuality that their parents may consider inappropriate for their age.

In a nut-shell, such a scenario is the same reason many people opposed the repeal of DADT, even though it is simply an absurd idea. And parents really don't have much control over their child's sexuality anyways. If you're worried about the Scouts then don't let them go to any school, public or private, or any social clubs or gatherings at all because because kids usually start discussing sex before and during middle school, and many start having sex during their middle and high school years.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And as a parent, I would be TICKED OFF if I wasn't informed about a member of a troop, and suddenly my 12 daughter came home from summer camp talking about her roommate's penis.

So you make a scene of it, humiliate the poor girl, and reaffirm that because she is so different she is an outsider. There are many, many, many homosexual and transsexual people that kill themselves because there being different infuriates people, and many times they are murdered just because they are different. There are already enough people telling us to go kill ourselves that even just a little more tolerance and acceptance would be a very welcomed thing. Even recently as transwoman was severally beaten for using the women's restroom, the video was uploaded to the net, and many people were amused by the beating.
It is literally so bad that because of this story if someone digs into her past, even starting at such a young age, will ruin her life. There are many with what we call "passing privilege" that have had there lives ruined because someone dug into their past and told everyone about there findings.

That being said, there are more sexual assaults and rapes committed by those with a penis than by those without.

True, but the margin is narrower than what most people think because very few men will report when they are sexually assaulted. Many people even do not believe it is possible for a man to be raped, especially by a woman.

I draw the line, however, at situations which are likely to involve nudity or intimacy. This is my biggest issue with the whole Scouts thing, because so often Scouting activities involve overnight trips and close quarters.

I know the boyscouts aren't very big into gay sex and orgies, and I doubt the girlscouts are, so what is the concern? Bobby may have a penis but she is still a girl. And even if she didn't have penis, what if she was a lesbian instead? And nudity is in all reality a non-issue. I know one therapist whose family doesn't cover themselves up after something like a shower, they have all seen each other nude, and they are a very close and happy family. Her and her family is also Christian (other than a non-literal and non-conservative type, I don't know the specific denomination). Her youngest son has even poked at her breast checking them out and seeing what they are. Nudity is non-detrimental to a child. It's when it becomes sexual that some damage may occur, but the nude human body on it's own is not inherently a sexual object.

It's extremely difficult to separate the two, as Bobby's case so succinctly illustrates.

It's not really that hard. Gender are things like girls play with dolls, do house work, raise the kids, and are passive and submissive, while boys play with cars, work outside the house, watches sports, and is competitive. Sex is what you are, but because the Western view on sex is so horribly flawed it can be difficult to define because there are so many genetic and physical variations that you can't give an accurate definition based upon our strict male/female gender binary. It's like trying to accurately translate a foreign word into English when we ourselves do not have any words or concepts to accurately describe it.

But because transwomen often have a penis, usually still look like a male, and have to work at forming a female voice, mannerisms, postures, walk, etc., they face HEAVY discrimination. Where I live I could legally be evicted just because I am who I am. Many transwomen are homeless, under educated, and under employed because people get worked over someone that goes against the male/female binary. Transwomen are often harassed and ridiculed for trying to fit in with women, and are often shunned because they are different. You don't see it, but as others pointed out, your views are actually quite damaging to the transcommunity. Many transsexuals, both Mtf and FtM, are terrified to use a public restroom because of views like yours, and it's actually a common question on transgender forums what states protect our restroom usage and which ones we can be arrested in.

In fact, I'd say that the likelihood of another girl acting on a same-sex attraction is much higher than the likelihood of the transgendered girl doing the same thing.

I fully agree with that. If she really sees herself as a girl, then having sex with another girl as a man probably wouldn't be very desirable, especially if it is casual sex. Of course that isn't always the case, as some people do have fetishes of transsexual women, but it's very rare that a transwomen would subject herself to such a position unless she is in some form of sex-work because no one will hire her. There is also the issue of what repercussions may come that would make it very likely make it a very small chance Bobby would even think about having sex with another scout. But then again alot of people think transwomen are perverts, and only want to act and look like women just to get into the women's restrooms, locker rooms, and shower rooms. But they never stop to think that there are many successful voyeurs who can get in and out of these facilities unnoticed; which makes all the money (easily $80,000-$100,000+ for therapy, medications, and all procedures), time (about two years officially to complete by the medical standards, but 10 years is much more of a realistic estimate), having conflicting ID's, being stuck in a gender limbo and not being able to pass as either for awhile (even those who you can't tell typically face this) and dealing with the public a very wasted effort.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What I'm saying is that the parents of ALL of the children involved have the right to question, get clarification, and make decisions with full knowledge - NOW THAT THE MOTHER HAS MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL about it. I mean, obviously she's not concerned with the privacy issue.

Ask questions, qet clarifications, and DESTROY lives in the process because then EVERYBODY knows that Bobby is a sick, twisted, perverted, abominable disgrace to the human race. Many transsexual are very careful to never discuss their former selves to keep people from finding out and having their lives shattered because that is what people really think of them.
And really the mother probably asked the troop ahead of time just to make sure. The laws are heavily stacked against transsexuals, and the mother probably didn't want to risk it being found out later and an even bigger mess being made. Also it's not mentioned how long ago Bobby started presenting as a girl. It's very possible the mother was worried because there may be girls from school that would know Bobby was not coming to school as Bobby last year which would make problems in the scouts.

For the record, I'm not worried about sexual activity and identity at this age, but as we all know, kids grow up and become more curious about sex.

What if Bobby is attracted to men? Then she'll find herself in even more very dangerous territory, because suddenly the man may feel his masculinity is being threatened once he finds out, especially since she will not be able to have genital surgery until she is 18.

Nope. I compared race to sex, not gender.

Which isn't a very solid comparison either because ultimately race does not exist, we are all homo sapiens and we all have the genetic capability to be very dark skinned as our very early African ancestors probably were.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for a person's right to know, what of our right to not be badgered and heckled with questions on an even more frequent and regular basis? And very often, the questions aren't asked in a friendly, desire to learn manner.

 

[Kathryn]

[QUOTESo you make a scene of it, humiliate the poor girl, and reaffirm that because she is so different she is an outsider. There are many, many, many homosexual and transsexual people that kill themselves because there being different infuriates people, and many times they are murdered just because they are different. There are already enough people telling us to go kill ourselves that even just a little more tolerance and acceptance would be a very welcomed thing. Even recently as transwoman was severally beaten for using the women's restroom, the video was uploaded to the net, and many people were amused by the beating.]

Uh, no. I would NEVER "make a scene of it, humiliate the poor girl, and reaffirm that she is an outsider." Wow, way to demonize me. And you have the gall to call ME judgmental.

I WOULD expect a clear explanation from the Scouts though. Then I could make up my mind as to whether or not my child would continue to participate - I would be able to make a decision with ALL the facts.

It is literally so bad that because of this story if someone digs into her past, even starting at such a young age, will ruin her life. There are many with what we call "passing privilege" that have had there lives ruined because someone dug into their past and told everyone about there findings.

Maybe Bobby's mother shouldn't seek such sensationalism then.

I know the boyscouts aren't very big into gay sex and orgies, and I doubt the girlscouts are, so what is the concern? Bobby may have a penis but she is still a girl. And even if she didn't have penis, what if she was a lesbian instead?

I doubt Bobby's sexual identity is even determined at this point. Not that Bobby is aware of, anyway. Lord, let's hope not.

As for lesbian behavior later in life (teen years most likely) I still assert that females are less likely to be sexually assaulted by people with vaginas than they are by people with penises. By the way, it sure is awkward talking without using male and female pronouns. :sarcastic

And nudity is in all reality a non-issue. I know one therapist whose family doesn't cover themselves up after something like a shower, they have all seen each other nude, and they are a very close and happy family. Her and her family is also Christian (other than a non-literal and non-conservative type, I don't know the specific denomination). Her youngest son has even poked at her breast checking them out and seeing what they are. Nudity is non-detrimental to a child. It's when it becomes sexual that some damage may occur, but the nude human body on it's own is not inherently a sexual object.

Nudity is a non issue to you. That doesn't make it a non issue to others. Many parents teach their children to be modest and not to undress around people of the opposite sex - are you saying they're wrong?

I'm not saying they are right or wrong. What I'm saying is that it is their RIGHT as parents to make that determination and that when they sign their daughter up for Scouts, they're not expecting to have to deal with someone with a penis sharing a tent or a bathroom with their daughter.

I guess they'll just have to buck up and take it though, right?

Transwomen are often harassed and ridiculed for trying to fit in with women, and are often shunned because they are different. You don't see it, but as others pointed out, your views are actually quite damaging to the transcommunity. Many transsexuals, both Mtf and FtM, are terrified to use a public restroom because of views like yours, and it's actually a common question on transgender forums what states protect our restroom usage and which ones we can be arrested in.

"Views like mine." Good grief.

If people with penises and testicles are going to be allowed in women's restrooms, what's to stop some sexual predator from claiming to be transgender and claiming their "right" to be in there? It's complicated, and it's not my fault that it is.

That being said, if someone looks and acts like a female, and identifies as such (or vice versa), I'm not advocating "genitalia police" action. DISCRETION, PEOPLE. Everything's not a cause or a bandwagon, is it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I'm saying is that the parents of ALL of the children involved have the right to question, get clarification, and make decisions with full knowledge - NOW THAT THE MOTHER HAS MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL about it. I mean, obviously she's not concerned with the privacy issue.

Had the mother never made any sort of deal about her child's gender vs sex, I doubt anyone would have ever had a clue - unless a child noticed something while undressing/sleeping/bathing etc. In which case, I believe that the other parents would have a right to question what the heck was going on.

Out of curiosity, what other issues do you take this stance on? Is birth sex the only one where you think that a Girl Scout troop has some obligation of disclosure to the other parents?

I mean, there are plenty of health issues where the parent might share information about their daughter's condition with the leaders and the other girls or their parents might never know. Is this wrong?

Or what about other issues? Hypothetical situation: a parent of a Girl Scout shares with a leader that she has sole custody of her daughter, but she's worried that the other parent might try to take the girl. Do the leaders have a duty to share this with the other parents? After all, they know have knowledge that an actual crime - a felony - has a high likelihood of happening with their daughters present. In a very real sense, there's a possibility that this could put their own daughters at risk.

I think that any responsible leader would keep this knowledge confidential. Wouldn't you?

 

[Drolefille]

Really? How do you know this? Because Bobby and the mother say so? Children have lots of confusion about gender, especially if the parents encourage certain behaviors, for whatever reason. I am suspect of Bobby's mother's motivations in this case.

This is transphobic. This is an area that you have evidenced and admitted that you know nothing about, and despite receiving an education from people who do actually know more than you do and you're ignoring them and deciding that her mother has questionable motivations? And that the child doesn't know? Either you're deliberately trolling or willfully refusing to educate yourself.

Because your words will hurt real people. 83-85% of transgender people report receiving verbal abuse for their identity and 30-37% report physical abuse. Incidents targeting transgendered people for murder represented about 20% of ALL murders and that's when 2-5% of the population is transgendered/has some level of gender dysphoria.

Answers to your Questions About Transgender People, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression
http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf

Please. Educate yourself on this.

 

[Drolefille]

Uh, no. I would NEVER "make a scene of it, humiliate the poor girl, and reaffirm that she is an outsider." Wow, way to demonize me. And you have the gall to call ME judgmental.

You're being very judgmental and then taking things personally because, perhaps, you feel targetted. You're not targeted for anything other than the words you're typing.

I WOULD expect a clear explanation from the Scouts though. Then I could make up my mind as to whether or not my child would continue to participate - I would be able to make a decision with ALL the facts.

Thank the gods, for the privacy and safety of the individuals involved, that you're not guaranteed one.

Maybe Bobby's mother shouldn't seek such sensationalism then.

You're right, she probably totally did this to tick other people off. She wrote the article too, I'm sure.

I doubt Bobby's sexual identity is even determined at this point. Not that Bobby is aware of, anyway. Lord, let's hope not.

Yeah, kids never know if they're straight or gay at young ages. Ever.

As for lesbian behavior later in life (teen years most likely) I still assert that females are less likely to be sexually assaulted by people with vaginas than they are by people with penises. By the way, it sure is awkward talking without using male and female pronouns. :sarcastic

But not by trans women. If you want to say that cis men are people most likely to rape someone, feel free.

Nudity is a non issue to you. That doesn't make it a non issue to others. Many parents teach their children to be modest and not to undress around people of the opposite sex - are you saying they're wrong?

If they're equating sex and gender then yes they're wrong as well as impractical and transphobic.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong. What I'm saying is that it is their RIGHT as parents to make that determination and that when they sign their daughter up for Scouts, they're not expecting to have to deal with someone with a penis sharing a tent or a bathroom with their daughter.

So now it's the bathroom and a tent, not just a shower and a bed. Heavens to betsy, what if they have to shake hands with a trans girl!

How in the world would a trans girl using the bathroom somehow warp the young innocent minds of our precious cis girls?

I guess they'll just have to buck up and take it though, right?

Yes.

"Views like mine." Good grief.

Transphobic views like yours.

If people with penises and testicles are going to be allowed in women's restrooms, what's to stop some sexual predator from claiming to be transgender and claiming their "right" to be in there? It's complicated, and it's not my fault that it is.

Like this one.
Stop equating giving trans people rights with rapists. This sort of thing just doesn't happen. You can probably find a handful of cases where it has, and thousands and thousands of trans people who go to the bathroom, dressing room, etc. EVERY DAY. If someone of any gender is peeping, video taping or attempting to assault someone in the bathroom it's illegal no matter WHO it is.

That being said, if someone looks and acts like a female, and identifies as such (or vice versa), I'm not advocating "genitalia police" action. DISCRETION, PEOPLE. Everything's not a cause or a bandwagon, is it?

Yes, I'm sure that the trans women and men of the world appreciate you telling them to be more discreet about who they are. Expecting equal rights is totally a bandwagon. We should just give it up.

 

[Drolefille]

Out of curiosity, what other issues do you take this stance on? Is birth sex the only one where you think that a Girl Scout troop has some obligation of disclosure to the other parents?

I mean, there are plenty of health issues where the parent might share information about their daughter's condition with the leaders and the other girls or their parents might never know. Is this wrong?

Or what about other issues? Hypothetical situation: a parent of a Girl Scout shares with a leader that she has sole custody of her daughter, but she's worried that the other parent might try to take the girl. Do the leaders have a duty to share this with the other parents? After all, they know have knowledge that an actual crime - a felony - has a high likelihood of happening with their daughters present. In a very real sense, there's a possibility that this could put their own daughters at risk.

I think that any responsible leader would keep this knowledge confidential. Wouldn't you?

Can't frubal you again but tried.

 

[javajo]

I pray that more people learn to except all LGBTQ children and adults and understand God loves and accepts all who come to him. Misunderstanding of only half a dozen passages in scripture has lead to the persecution of so many innocent people. If only people understood that God is love and commands us to love him and others as ourselves these terrible injustices would cease. The first four commandments tell us how to love God and the last six how to love each other, but they all teach us to love. That includes everyone. Learn to understand those who are different and learn why you hate or abhor certain people different than you. That is what God is all about.

 

[Kathryn]

I'm sticking to the topic at hand. Transgender/transsexual/sexual identity/sexuality are topics that are rife with moral issues, conflicting opinions, changing definitions, etc. They are loaded with emotions, agendas, and assertions across the personal and political spectrum.

Parents of Girl Scouts ought to know if the Girl Scouts allow transgender children, whose genitals may not "match" their gender, to be a part of a Girl Scout troop. Apparently this has not been the case, at least when it comes to official policy, till now. Even now, I'm not sure if this is a nation wide policy change, or amendment, or clarification, or if it is just for the state of Colorado.

I don't believe that individuals should be pointed out. However, if my child is likely to see something which, frankly, may shock her - I want to have the choice of whether or not I place her in that situation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm sticking to the topic at hand. Transgender/transsexual/sexual identity/sexuality are topics that are rife with moral issues, conflicting opinions, changing definitions, etc. They are loaded with emotions, agendas, and assertions across the personal and political spectrum.

Parents of Girl Scouts ought to know if the Girl Scouts allow transgender children, whose genitals may not "match" their gender, to be a part of a Girl Scout troop. Apparently this has not been the case, at least when it comes to official policy, till now. Even now, I'm not sure if this is a nation wide policy change, or amendment, or clarification, or if it is just for the state of Colorado.

I don't believe that individuals should be pointed out. However, if my child is likely to see something which, frankly, may shock her - I want to have the choice of whether or not I place her in that situation.

Hypothetically, a child could be shocked by lots of things: strangely-shaped birthmarks, extreme political or religious views, odd phobias or habits of her fellow guides. Speaking for myself, I found it rather shocking when I met my first diabetic; the idea of having to inject onesself with needles every day was rather unsettling to me.

So... should you as a parent have the right to vet your daughter's Scout troop to make sure that none of the Guides have any trakts that might shock your daughter? And if you don't think that the leaders have a responsibility to tell you about strange birthmarks in the troop, why treat transgenderism any differently?

 

[Kathryn]

This is transphobic. This is an area that you have evidenced and admitted that you know nothing about,

Actually I didn't say I know NOTHING about it. I know as much, or probably more, than the average layperson.

and despite receiving an education from people who do actually know more than you do and you're ignoring them and deciding that her mother has questionable motivations?

I have not made a decision about the mother's motivation. I am QUESTIONING her motivation. In other words, I am a skeptical, questioning, curious, and objective person - traits that have served me well in my career and life in general.

And that the child doesn't know? Either you're deliberately trolling or willfully refusing to educate yourself.

Seven years old is not old enough to decide whether or not you will gender-identify as a girl or a boy for the rest of your life.

As for the charge of trolling or "willfully refusing to educate myself," - those aren't the only options, even if they may be in your world. There's another option - I don't agree with your assessment of the situation.

Because your words will hurt real people.

How so? I haven't been rude in this thread. I'm not rude in real life either. This is supposedly a debate and discussion thread where real people can discuss real issues truthfully, frankly, and honestly - in a polite and adult manner. I believe my comments have fit that criteria so far.

83-85% of transgender people report receiving verbal abuse for their identity and 30-37% report physical abuse. Incidents targeting transgendered people for murder represented about 20% of ALL murders and that's when 2-5% of the population is transgendered/has some level of gender dysphoria.

Well, they don't have to worry about any of that from me. I believe in treating others as I want to be treated, regardless of their lifestyle choices. I am not and will not be rude or abusive - let alone MURDEROUS - to anyone.

I do, however, reserve the right to discuss this topic, and others, honestly and sincerely, on this forum. If that "hurts other people," my gosh, I'm certainly sorry. I haven't disrespected anyone regarding this topic. However, I do realize that some people have a very low tolerance of anyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"Views like mine." Good grief.

Yes, views like yours. You've already stated that chromosomes and genitals are the determining factor, (never mind many of us have thoroughly debunked that), that just because someone has a penis they are more likely to sexually assault women (even though a transwomen identifies as a women and typically have a strong disliking of their penis in the sameway transmen have a disliking of their breasts. And hormone therapy makes it very difficult to achieve and sustain an erection anyways, so there really isn't any issue), and that your "right to know" takes precedence over another's right to privacy over such a delicate issue, and that transsexuals should not be allowed to use the restroom of the sex they are presenting as, even though you will never actually see what sort of genitals they have. And YOUR view, which would offend just about any MtF out there:

As for lesbian behavior later in life (teen years most likely) I still assert that females are less likely to be sexually assaulted by people with vaginas than they are by people with penises.

That is practically regurgitated from many far-right sources that would deny us air to breathe if they could. I deduce this because we are talking about transsexuals, not rapists! It is almost always someone of the far-right that brings it up, even though it is as accurate as the idea of bringing up child molestation when discussion homosexuals.

Uh, no. I would NEVER "make a scene of it, humiliate the poor girl, and reaffirm that she is an outsider." Wow, way to demonize me. And you have the gall to call ME judgmental.

You're the one who said genes and genitals are the end all of the decision, that biological lineage is the same as sex, and that it is your right to know sensitive information that is quite frankly none of your damn business.

Nudity is a non issue to you. That doesn't make it a non issue to others. Many parents teach their children to be modest and not to undress around people of the opposite sex - are you saying they're wrong?

How will your child seeing a nude body, of the same sex or opposite, in anyways be detrimental to their development? Individual modesty is one thing, but to make a dragon out of a gecko is another.

I'm not saying they are right or wrong. What I'm saying is that it is their RIGHT as parents to make that determination and that when they sign their daughter up for Scouts, they're not expecting to have to deal with someone with a penis sharing a tent or a bathroom with their daughter.

Again, YOUR views. It isn't that hard to explain to a child that sometimes people are born as one sex, but there brain developed as the opposite sex. Or what if a cisgirl happens to have an enlarged clitoris that your daughter mistakes for a penis? Again, such information is not any of your business if that was an abnormally large clitoris or a penis your daughter saw. It's a group of girls learning various skills and making friends. Why worry? Everyone is different, some people were just born with the wrong sex organs.
And using transwomen and rapist in the same sentence like you do is how those who have money who hate us get other people to be afraid of and hate us. There are many Conservative blogs, news sources, and other such things that use such phrases, such as the very one you used of "what is to stop sexual predators" to discriminate against transsexuals. Florida awhile ago made it legal for people to use the restroom of the sex they are presenting as, and guess what the counter adds had? Fears of sexual predators.

I WOULD expect a clear explanation from the Scouts though. Then I could make up my mind as to whether or not my child would continue to participate - I would be able to make a decision with ALL the facts.

Why not do the sensible thing and let your child decide for herself? If the troop had people shooting up every week there would be a real concern, but that your daughter might see her friend's penis through her underwear is a very trivial concern, especially since Bobby will probably be either tucking her penis or being very careful and cautious that nobody sees it. But wouldn't that be great if everyone in the troop was ok with Bobby and she didn't have to worry about it anyways?

I guess they'll just have to buck up and take it though, right?

Actually when I say nudity is non-detrimental and people here make too big of a deal out of it, I am not just stating my opinion but what has been thoroughly researched through domestic and cross-culture studies. We pretend nudity is bad (even though it's a very regular sight to many adults and children throughout the world), and we also like to pretend that telling teens to not have sex until marriage actually works (which clearly it doesn't).

I pray that more people learn to except all LGBTQ children and adults and understand God loves and accepts all who come to him. Misunderstanding of only half a dozen passages in scripture has lead to the persecution of so many innocent people. If only people understood that God is love and commands us to love him and others as ourselves these terrible injustices would cease. The first four commandments tell us how to love God and the last six how to love each other, but they all teach us to love. That includes everyone. Learn to understand those who are different and learn why you hate or abhor certain people different than you. That is what God is all about.

I really wish more people had your views. It is because of people like you that I defend religion and some of the religious when they are being unfairly attacked.

 

[Kathryn]

Hypothetically, a child could be shocked by lots of things: strangely-shaped birthmarks, extreme political or religious views, odd phobias or habits of her fellow guides. Speaking for myself, I found it rather shocking when I met my first diabetic; the idea of having to inject onesself with needles every day was rather unsettling to me.

So... should you as a parent have the right to vet your daughter's Scout troop to make sure that none of the Guides have any trakts that might shock your daughter? And if you don't think that the leaders have a responsibility to tell you about strange birthmarks in the troop, why treat transgenderism any differently?

Quit trying to force your concept of my agenda down my throat. What I've said is that parents have the right to know what to expect as far as admission into the Girl Scout troop that they enroll their daughter in. If this could include transgender children, whose genitals don't "match up with" the other kids, the parents have a right to know that, so they can either prepare their child for that possibility of discovery, or choose not to enroll their child.

Hence my question about whether or not the Scout policy has been changed officially, amended, or expanded and whether or not that policy applies to all locations of Girl Scouts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Quit trying to force your concept of my agenda down my throat. What I've said is that parents have the right to know what to expect as far as admission into the Girl Scout troop that they enroll their daughter in. If this could include transgender children, whose genitals don't "match up with" the other kids, the parents have a right to know that, so they can either prepare their child for that possibility of discovery, or choose not to enroll their child.

What our right to live peacefully as the people we are? Concerning such issues, everyone else's ignorance is quite often our own bliss. Your "right to know" often leads to public humiliation and prejudice when people start to know. So whose right is more important? I would say the person who could potentially be fired, evicted, harassed, beaten, and killed definitely takes priority over someone who has a fantasy of what dangers such a person won't present.
Or another situation for you, what if another scout had coprolalia? That you obviously cannot hide, and could at first be much more upsetting to kids than finding out their friend has parts that don't match? But would let your child join, knowing she will be hearing things your probably don't want her to? Keep her sheltered from the world, or introduce her to the diversity of the human race and potentially make friends with someone that might need a friend and might not have very many of them to begin with.

 

[Apex]

Is Kathryn's point really so difficult to understand?

 

[Skwim]

Watching the discussion from the sidelines for awhile---I thought it a good one and didn't want to interrupt ---here's my opinion.

If a governing GSA council is in agreement with the GSA Colorado Council's position, "If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout," then this should be made clear to all parents of current and potential Girl Scouts. Parents can then deal with the possibility as they choose, and no transgender child need be identified as such.