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75 Theses ~ Science Against Evolution

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
To let you understand Subduction, there are certain positions that are well enough known to those conversant in particular subjects, that direct sources are not generally required-

asking to back up such a well known position from such a world renowned paleontologist, is a little like asking for a source to prove that Lou Gehrig declared himself the luckiest man on the face of the earth.. it would only serve to undermine your own authority on baseball...

No, now you are not being honest. You did not quote properly. You did not provide a link to the original source. Darwin made the same sort of statements where a whole paragraph could be taken out of context. You never supplied proper context so your quote is worthless. An honest person would have provided a link to the original or would simply not use such a quote.

I'm sure you are capable of finding a source for this quote yourself, and I would encourage you to go beyond that and read more of Raup's work, he was a pretty significant contributor to the study of natural history.

I probably could, if I cared to. But since you are attempting to use the quote the burden of proof is upon you. If you can't supply the original your quote is worthless.

Unfortunately he passed away recently, or I'm sure you could have educated him on all the mistakes he made!

Or perhaps he did not make a mistake. Since you can't quote properly we will never know. By the way what makes you think that a scientist cannot be in error? I can find source after source that show his claim to be wrong. I already found two for you, I can find more.

By the way, no one is arguing Lou Gehrig's claim so your analogy fails. If someone made the claim that he said so in a debate the burden of proof would still be upon the person that made the claim. It would be no problem for the challenged person to substantiate his claim. Why can't you substantiate yours?
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
^ very good point, and I have been accused of 'quote mining' for posting this very paragraph before

Raup recognized the conflicts between Darwin and paleontology, something that is strictly verboten in many academic and pop-science circles


No, he merely saw that there were unanswered questions at the time. By the way, how old is that quote? If it was even as recent as 30 years old there have been quite a few major transitional fossils found since then. That is another factor that is always important when quoting someone. New discoveries may have been made since then or the scientist may have even changed his mind as Einstein did in regards to his "God does not play with dice" claim. A quote without a source is worthless.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
No, now you are not being honest. You did not quote properly. You did not provide a link to the original source. Darwin made the same sort of statements where a whole paragraph could be taken out of context. You never supplied proper context so your quote is worthless. An honest person would have provided a link to the original or would simply not use such a quote.

any substantive response?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
^ very good point, and I have been accused of 'quote mining' for posting this very paragraph before

Raup recognized the conflicts between Darwin and paleontology, something that is strictly verboten in many academic and pop-science circles
I think the point is that we need to read a lot more than a couple of random lines, if we are to properly understand what Raup was talking about. This is where a link to the original work comes in handy.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I could try to simplify it for you. But it appears that you simply won't allow yourself to see how you are being dishonest. Others have explained this to you multiple times. I doubt if I can do any better.
Don't bother. I took him to task for obviously quote-mining, demonstrated that he was lying, and demanded him to retract his quote mine. He refused, no matter how embarrassingly I exposed him, and he eventually blocked me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think the point is that we need to read a lot more than a couple of random lines, if we are to properly understand what Raup was talking about. This is where a link to the original work comes in handy.
Looking through some of Raup's work it appears that this quote probably came from the 1970's. For example he made a similar quote that is often taken out of context in 1971:

"
Quote #4.3
[The lack of transitional fossils contradicts evolution]

"Unfortunately, the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery: commonly new higher categories appear abruptly in the fossil record without evidence of transitional forms." - D. M. Raup and S. M. Stanley Principles of Paleontology, W. H. Freeman and Co., San Francisco, 1971, page 306.

Representative miners: The Bible Probe: Objections to the Doctrine of Evolution and Ankerberg Theological Research Institute: What Has the Fossil Record Revealed About Darwin’s Missing Link Between All the Plants and Animals?

Starting at the last paragraph on page 305 we find this:

In general, it is much easier to establish phylogenies for major vertebrate groups than for major invertebrate and plant groups because all recognized classes and orders of the Vertebrata have originated since the Cambrian. Although all higher vascular plant taxa have apparently originated since the early Paleozoic, the fossil record of plants is less complete. Furthermore, fossil plant remains usually reveal less about whole-organism morphology than do vertebrate remains. Invertebrate animals fall into several phyla whose late Precambrian and Cambrian are almost universally undocumented by the known fossil record. In some instances, however, we have a moderately good knowledge of the post-Paleozoic phylogenies within invertebrate phyla.

Note that the discussion centers around the fossil record of the late Precambrian and Cambrian. Immediately following, at the top of page 306 is the section quoted:

Unfortunately, the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery; commonly new higher categories appear abruptly in the fossil record without evidence of transitional ancestral[1] forms. Simpson has listed several reasons for this situation. Among them are the following:

  1. Appearance of a new higher category has usually marked a major adaptive breakthrough, often accompanying inhabitation of previously unoccupied niches; evolution under such conditions has tended to be very rapid.
  2. Any lineages of the ancestral group that were similar enough to enter into competition with the new group are likely to have been rapidly displaced.
  3. Often, times of higher category appearance are represented by gaps in the geological record. (in some instances, rapid evolutionary turnover and unconformities may have resulted from the same widespread environmental change.)
  4. Change in habitat during the adaptive breakthrough has made discovery of certain transitional forms unlikely.
  5. Major adaptive breakthroughs have commonly occurred in relatively small populations or taxonomic groups.
  6. Transitions have commonly been made in taxa whose members were small relative to average size in both the ancestral and descendent higher categories.
  7. Transitions have commonly taken place in restricted geographic areas, and possibly the same transitions occurred at different times in different areas.
[1] Most creationist sites leave "ancestral" out of the quote. - Ed.

Seven possible reasons are given as to why the fossil record is currently incomplete, and while creationists may dispute the validity of these reasons, that doesn't change the fact that possible reasons were given. But remember that the quoted section stated that "the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery...". Does this mean that Raup and Stanley believe that all origins are "shrouded in mystery"? Not at all, because immediately following the list of possible reasons for the incompleteness of the fossil record is this gem:

The fossil record does occasionally provide what might be termed as a "missing link," a species that appears to represent a transitional stage between higher taxa. One such form is the reptile-like bird Archaeopteryx, of the Middle Jurassic,... Archaeopteryxpossessed both reptilian and avian characters. Its possession of feathers suggests that it was warm-blooded, like modern birds, but it also had large teeth, solid bones, and other reptilian skeletal features.

Raup and Stanley then go on to outline the transition from bactritid nautiloids to ammonoids (two invertebrate groups).

In conclusion, while Raup and Stanley acknowledge some gaps in the fossil record, this doesn't mean that they believe that such gaps are because transitional forms never existed, as can be seen by a more complete reading of the their text.

- Jon (Augray) Barber"

Quote Mine Project: Assorted Quotes

That was over 40 years ago and scientists have fleshed out the fossil record quite a bit since then. Scientists often in the past acknowledged that parts of the fossil record were patchy. There are still large missing sections here and there, and that is to expected. Some events simply do not have a good record, nor is one expected.

What creationists can't stand is the fact that all fossils found to date fit in the evolutionary paradigm. And there is no creationist paradigm to even try to place them into. Creationists are too afraid to form a testable hypothesis that explains their beliefs. By their own inaction their is no scientific evidence for creationism.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Looking through some of Raup's work it appears that this quote probably came from the 1970's. For example he made a similar quote that is often taken out of context in 1971:

"
Quote #4.3
[The lack of transitional fossils contradicts evolution]

"Unfortunately, the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery: commonly new higher categories appear abruptly in the fossil record without evidence of transitional forms." - D. M. Raup and S. M. Stanley Principles of Paleontology, W. H. Freeman and Co., San Francisco, 1971, page 306.

Representative miners: The Bible Probe: Objections to the Doctrine of Evolution and Ankerberg Theological Research Institute: What Has the Fossil Record Revealed About Darwin’s Missing Link Between All the Plants and Animals?

Starting at the last paragraph on page 305 we find this:

In general, it is much easier to establish phylogenies for major vertebrate groups than for major invertebrate and plant groups because all recognized classes and orders of the Vertebrata have originated since the Cambrian. Although all higher vascular plant taxa have apparently originated since the early Paleozoic, the fossil record of plants is less complete. Furthermore, fossil plant remains usually reveal less about whole-organism morphology than do vertebrate remains. Invertebrate animals fall into several phyla whose late Precambrian and Cambrian are almost universally undocumented by the known fossil record. In some instances, however, we have a moderately good knowledge of the post-Paleozoic phylogenies within invertebrate phyla.

Note that the discussion centers around the fossil record of the late Precambrian and Cambrian. Immediately following, at the top of page 306 is the section quoted:

Unfortunately, the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery; commonly new higher categories appear abruptly in the fossil record without evidence of transitional ancestral[1] forms. Simpson has listed several reasons for this situation. Among them are the following:

  1. Appearance of a new higher category has usually marked a major adaptive breakthrough, often accompanying inhabitation of previously unoccupied niches; evolution under such conditions has tended to be very rapid.
  2. Any lineages of the ancestral group that were similar enough to enter into competition with the new group are likely to have been rapidly displaced.
  3. Often, times of higher category appearance are represented by gaps in the geological record. (in some instances, rapid evolutionary turnover and unconformities may have resulted from the same widespread environmental change.)
  4. Change in habitat during the adaptive breakthrough has made discovery of certain transitional forms unlikely.
  5. Major adaptive breakthroughs have commonly occurred in relatively small populations or taxonomic groups.
  6. Transitions have commonly been made in taxa whose members were small relative to average size in both the ancestral and descendent higher categories.
  7. Transitions have commonly taken place in restricted geographic areas, and possibly the same transitions occurred at different times in different areas.
[1] Most creationist sites leave "ancestral" out of the quote. - Ed.

Seven possible reasons are given as to why the fossil record is currently incomplete, and while creationists may dispute the validity of these reasons, that doesn't change the fact that possible reasons were given. But remember that the quoted section stated that "the origins of most higher categories are shrouded in mystery...". Does this mean that Raup and Stanley believe that all origins are "shrouded in mystery"? Not at all, because immediately following the list of possible reasons for the incompleteness of the fossil record is this gem:

The fossil record does occasionally provide what might be termed as a "missing link," a species that appears to represent a transitional stage between higher taxa. One such form is the reptile-like bird Archaeopteryx, of the Middle Jurassic,... Archaeopteryxpossessed both reptilian and avian characters. Its possession of feathers suggests that it was warm-blooded, like modern birds, but it also had large teeth, solid bones, and other reptilian skeletal features.

Raup and Stanley then go on to outline the transition from bactritid nautiloids to ammonoids (two invertebrate groups).

In conclusion, while Raup and Stanley acknowledge some gaps in the fossil record, this doesn't mean that they believe that such gaps are because transitional forms never existed, as can be seen by a more complete reading of the their text.

- Jon (Augray) Barber"

Quote Mine Project: Assorted Quotes
Good find. The best I could find was that the quote came from sometime in the late 1970s. So it's not exactly current.

That was over 40 years ago and scientists have fleshed out the fossil record quite a bit since then. Scientists often in the past acknowledged that parts of the fossil record were patchy. There are still large missing sections here and there, and that is to expected. Some events simply do not have a good record, nor is one expected.
Exactly. I don't think anybody ever expected to find the fossilized remains of every single organism that ever existed.

And it's not as though the fossil record is the only available evidence of evolution. Not by a long shot. And how strange that all the evidence from multiple different fields of science all point to the same conclusion - that evolution occurs and is responsible for the diversity of life on Earth. ;)

What creationists can't stand is the fact that all fossils found to date fit in the evolutionary paradigm. And there is no creationist paradigm to even try to place them into. Creationists are too afraid to form a testable hypothesis that explains their beliefs. By their own inaction their is no scientific evidence for creationism.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I think the point is that we need to read a lot more than a couple of random lines, if we are to properly understand what Raup was talking about. This is where a link to the original work comes in handy.

You've had several paragraphs already but..


For those still unable to find this, give it a read- you won't find any change in context here I promise you, he makes the same points over and over- not ambiguous-

after all the paper itself is titled Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology which should give you some sort of a clue as to context! - it would take a lot of cherry picking to try to re purpose this as a paper about 'Harmony between Darwin and Paleontology :) but give it a go!

Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology


From the 2nd page


.. instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists in Darwin's time and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record, that is species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find...


Think all this is STILL somehow quoting out of context? everyone take a deep breath, take break from the name calling, and just have a read, judge for yourself, it's really quite interesting.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You've had several paragraphs already but..


For those still unable to find this, give it a read- you won't find any change in context here I promise you, he makes the same points over and over- not ambiguous-

after all the paper itself is titled Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology which should give you some sort of a clue as to context! - it would take a lot of cherry picking to try to re purpose this as a paper about 'Harmony between Darwin and Paleontology :) but give it a go!

Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology


From the 2nd page


.. instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists in Darwin's time and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record, that is species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find...


Think all this is STILL somehow quoting out of context? everyone take a deep breath, take break from the name calling, and just have a read, judge for yourself, it's really quite interesting.
Yes, if you don't understand what he is saying and you try to misapply his quote that is quoting out of context. He is discussing how evolution occurred, not whether or not it did occur. The "slow and gradual" concept of evolution is shown to be wrong by the fossil record. It occurs more in fits and starts. A well adapted species will evolve very very slowly, if at all. Large populations stabilize a species. Speciation tends to take place with small offshoots that have limited contact with the main body. He is discussing how evolution occurred, not whether it occurred or not.

An inability to understand articles is not evidence against evolution. And even if you found supposed evidence against evolution that is not evidence for creationism. To claim creationism occurred you need to find evidence for it. That means you need to form a testable hypothesis first.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
You've had several paragraphs already but..


For those still unable to find this, give it a read- you won't find any change in context here I promise you, he makes the same points over and over- not ambiguous-

after all the paper itself is titled Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology which should give you some sort of a clue as to context! - it would take a lot of cherry picking to try to re purpose this as a paper about 'Harmony between Darwin and Paleontology :) but give it a go!

Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology


From the 2nd page


.. instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists in Darwin's time and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record, that is species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. And it is not always clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find...


Think all this is STILL somehow quoting out of context? everyone take a deep breath, take break from the name calling, and just have a read, judge for yourself, it's really quite interesting.
Yes, you are still out of context. The quote and the chapter of the textbook it comes from (and what you linked to) was advancing the then-new idea--in 1971--that gradualism (what Darwin generally proposed) did not adequately explain the fossil record.

It didn't, and it doesn't. But not for the reason you are advancing. Raup and others were at the time engaged in a debate in the field of biology and geology and paleontology between two possible modes of change: gradualism, which was the default model, what was then widely accepted and taught; and catastrophism.

Raup's work, along with a number of others, including Eldridge and Gould, in 1972 was dubbed "punctuated equilibrium." In this then-new theory, most of the time, species would slowly evolve. Occasionally, though, very sudden changes would happen in the environment, leading to sudden extinctions and abrupt new speciation.

In the 46 years since the publication of the Raup quote that is so precious to creationists, far more research has shown that punctuated equilibrium more accurately fits the observed patterns in the fossil record, geology, and biology than does gradualism and natural selection.

What biologists, paleontologists, geologists, etc., have done is identify a number of different forms of natural selection, which includes gradual selection pressures, as well as sudden short-term changes (such as an asteroid striking the earth).

You might, but I suspect you won't, try
Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Agre
Yes, you are still out of context. The quote and the chapter of the textbook it comes from (and what you linked to) was advancing the then-new idea--in 1971--that gradualism (what Darwin generally proposed) did not adequately explain the fossil record.

It didn't, and it doesn't. But not for the reason you are advancing. Raup and others were at the time engaged in a debate in the field of biology and geology and paleontology between two possible modes of change: gradualism, which was the default model, what was then widely accepted and taught; and catastrophism.

Raup's work, along with a number of others, including Eldridge and Gould, in 1972 was dubbed "punctuated equilibrium." In this then-new theory, most of the time, species would slowly evolve. Occasionally, though, very sudden changes would happen in the environment, leading to sudden extinctions and abrupt new speciation.

In the 46 years since the publication of the Raup quote that is so precious to creationists, far more research has shown that punctuated equilibrium more accurately fits the observed patterns in the fossil record, geology, and biology than does gradualism and natural selection.

What biologists, paleontologists, geologists, etc., have done is identify a number of different forms of natural selection, which includes gradual selection pressures, as well as sudden short-term changes (such as an asteroid striking the earth).

You might, but I suspect you won't, try
Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia

^ Agree entirely

And If you look back at how the quote first came up, this was my original comment


"In Darwin's time, the gaps were believed to be artifacts of an incomplete record, which would be filled in as new fossils were discovered.
In contrast, the gaps have become ever more well defined, explosive, abrupt- hence the emergence of Darwinian splinter groups like punctuated equilibrium
....


Someone not so familiar with the point we both agree on, asked for a credible source for this change to an increasingly 'staccato' understanding of the fossil record

Most of us are aware that this is hardly a controversial observation these days, and so I used Raup precisely because he was one of the most notable pioneers of it- that it's not just a recent 'whacky' splinter group but a trend that has been emerging in main stream evolutionary biology for quite some time

Raup may have stated the lack of transitional examples more emphatically than others, but it is this dearth of smooth transitions relative to Darwinian predictions that is central to the point, so it could harldy be more solidly within context.

If you think I was saying something else, then you are the one taking the quote out of context! I still don't consider anyone a liar here, or any of the names I've been called, i think honest intelligent people can come to different conclusions. At the very least that assumption tends to make for a more interesting discussion than merely ad hominem, so I don't generally enage/respond to those :)
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
So great, DNA didn't come about by blind chance. Given how complex it is, it would be silly to propose blind random chance. How does the theory of evolution explain the origins of DNA? A spoonful of which, incidentally contains more information than all the books found in the World. Mind boggling stuff.

The theory of evolution isn't a theory that describes the origin of DNA or life. The theory is not dependent on life arising by any particular mechanism and evolution would operate just fine on divinely created life just as it would on life originating by some means of abiogenesis.

One of the claims that was pitched out from the creationist website was that if abiogenesis were falsified, so to would evolution be. This is s false statement.

Biblical creationists often tend to mix the theory of evolution with hypotheses about abiogenesis. For that matter, they mix in cosmology and the origins of the universe too.

If you wan't to know about the Big Bang, ask a creationist about evolution.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
And so which comes first? what has to happen before the superior design can be selected for? why skip over that part?


Natural selection goes entirely without saying, nobody debates that a significantly superior design will out perform an inferior one, that's why we still have Ford Mustangs but not Pintos

How you introduce that superior design in the first place, is obviously the crux of the matter,


which Darwinists gloss over entirely- with the theory of 'Natural selection'

leaving out the subheading "of superior designs that conveniently, spontaneously appeared by pure blind chance"


as if that is the part that goes without saying, it isn't.
Genetic variation has to happen. They are superior designs. The are living things optimized for their environments. An organism with traits that optimize it for a particular environment will have greater fitness than one that doesn't have those optimizations. Your idea of superior is outcome based. I suppose that greater fitness is a superior position in the context of the environment that leads to it, since you will have more descendants with your genes in that environment. It should be made clear that no one is selecting the traits of living things and it is the natural process of selection that leads to their persistence in a population. There is no evidence that anyone has a set of blueprints for species and is making some a priori selection.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Agre


^ Agree entirely

And If you look back at how the quote first came up, this was my original comment


"In Darwin's time, the gaps were believed to be artifacts of an incomplete record, which would be filled in as new fossils were discovered.
In contrast, the gaps have become ever more well defined, explosive, abrupt- hence the emergence of Darwinian splinter groups like punctuated equilibrium
....


Someone not so familiar with the point we both agree on, asked for a credible source for this change to an increasingly 'staccato' understanding of the fossil record

Most of us are aware that this is hardly a controversial observation these days, and so I used Raup precisely because he was one of the most notable pioneers of it- that it's not just a recent 'whacky' splinter group but a trend that has been emerging in main stream evolutionary biology for quite some time

Raup may have stated the lack of transitional examples more emphatically than others, but it is this dearth of smooth transitions relative to Darwinian predictions that is central to the point, so it could harldy be more solidly within context.

If you think I was saying something else, then you are the one taking the quote out of context! I still don't consider anyone a liar here, or any of the names I've been called, i think honest intelligent people can come to different conclusions. At the very least that assumption tends to make for a more interesting discussion than merely ad hominem, so I don't generally enage/respond to those :)
You have this so wrong. Even Darwin proposed a version of punctuated equilibrium. In geologic terms it is rather quick, but in real time, punctuated equilibrium happens over millions of years. It is just that the periods of stasis are much longer.

Yes. There is argument and discussion of the theory of evolution and the evidence among scientists. Always has been, always will be. This argument and discussion doesn't herald the demise of the theory. Evidence would have to do that.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Agre


^ Agree entirely

And If you look back at how the quote first came up, this was my original comment


"In Darwin's time, the gaps were believed to be artifacts of an incomplete record, which would be filled in as new fossils were discovered.
In contrast, the gaps have become ever more well defined, explosive, abrupt- hence the emergence of Darwinian splinter groups like punctuated equilibrium
....


Someone not so familiar with the point we both agree on, asked for a credible source for this change to an increasingly 'staccato' understanding of the fossil record

Most of us are aware that this is hardly a controversial observation these days, and so I used Raup precisely because he was one of the most notable pioneers of it- that it's not just a recent 'whacky' splinter group but a trend that has been emerging in main stream evolutionary biology for quite some time

Raup may have stated the lack of transitional examples more emphatically than others, but it is this dearth of smooth transitions relative to Darwinian predictions that is central to the point, so it could harldy be more solidly within context.

If you think I was saying something else, then you are the one taking the quote out of context! I still don't consider anyone a liar here, or any of the names I've been called, i think honest intelligent people can come to different conclusions. At the very least that assumption tends to make for a more interesting discussion than merely ad hominem, so I don't generally enage/respond to those :)


Punctuated equilibrium is not a "splinter group". There is no dogma in the sciences. People do not attack others for heresy. All that punctuated equilibrium is is a refinement of the theory. The same basic laws apply, the same procedures go on. The only major difference is that the rate of evolution is not constant.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Abiogenesis is laughably stupid. How a person can believe RNA just threw itself together and became alive is truly a mystery.


"I found this watch on the field today."
"Gee, I wonder how many millions of years it took for that watch to have evolved naturally?"
"I don't know, Bob, but it must have happened that way since we know there is no Creator."
"Just think, it must have taken billions of years for life to evolve since it is much more complicated than this watch."

:facepalm:
How could something that is yet to exist, throw itself together so that it does exist? No scientist makes the claim that RNA, DNA or life created itself. This is a common claim made by creationists claiming that is what is claimed in science.

The watchmaker argument was refuted lifetimes ago.
 
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