A bit of compelled speech in Virginia

[Stevicus]

But that is not the issue here. Tell me how many transgendered children (or children claiming to be transgender) are forced into it by their mothers?

I don't know the answer to this question, although it might also depend on what one considers force. If a child is raised in a Christian family, are they forced to become Christians?

 

[Heyo]

So you'd want all the kids to demonstrate the "right" to their pronouns? Why? Doesn't that seem a bit extreme?

Doesn't it seem a bit extreme when someone wants to be referred to as "his Highness"? Shouldn't that require the proof to legally bear that title?
What I'm saying is that not every ridiculous request should be followed.
I don't see a gender change as unusual or worthy to request proof. It doesn't cost much effort.
But already with "they/them" it may require extensive work if the teacher uses forms that don't have that option. You may be a very special snowflake but if you want to force me to re-write all my forms, that's requesting a bit more than common courtesy and I may question the legitimacy.

 

[wellwisher]

The other day I was thinking about genders and how the left teaches that one is allowed to ignore physical reality; natural sexual assignment at birth based on DNA, in favor of alternate choice, not connected to one's direct DNA.

The question then became, can this schema be extrapolated? For example, I am genetically European; France/Canada and Poland, based on DNA tests done by a sibling via Ancestry.com. This is my natural genetic assignment, like it or not. I am comfortable with it.

When I was younger; teen years, I had a special attraction and inclination to the East; Japanese and Chinese cultures. Can I call and assign myself to be oriental via choice, like is done with gender choice? I would have become Oriental with European DNA.

If DNA assignment at birth does not matter, can I also claim to be black, with light skin? The black men in my world were very athletic and I was among the fastest runners with many black friends. This race choice would allow me to take advantage of the extras the left assigns to that skin color. Gender choice is allowed to ignore an entire X or Y chromosome, while color of skin is only a few genes. This should be allowable since it less irrational in terms of gene count.

I also like dogs and cats and have a way with animals. Can I also claim to be from another species, via the same leftist creationism logic? According to evolution we all evolved from the same RNA replicators, so I should have DNA in common with dogs.

These extrapolations will sound bizarre to everyone, and is why censorship and commandeering of language becomes so important to the left. If we can force or persuade everyone to sing the same chorus these extrapolation will be next. Time to wake up; meow!

 

[Stevicus]

It's outside the experience of most people.

I've noticed some businesses might still take a stand on something and be willing to take the heat over it - even if it means losing some customers. Perhaps they believe they might gain other customers who support them. They might have to gauge the overall political situation.

 

[McBell]

Imagine for a moment this was not about a transgendered child. Just a “normal” kid.

If someone just decided to use the wrong pronouns, referring to a young boy as she and her, perhaps even calling him a girls name. Is that ok? It is just speech right? Is it compelled speech to call somebody by their name?

Except this is not about the teacher "just deciding to use the wrong pronouns".
This is about the teacher flat out refusing to use the prefered pronouns directly requested by the student.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've noticed some businesses might still take a stand on something and be willing to take the heat over it - even if it means losing some customers. Perhaps they believe they might gain other customers who support them. They might have to gauge the overall political situation.

A real estate broker would lose their license.
Fair Housing & other real estate laws compel speech.

 

[Heyo]

The other day I was thinking about genders and how the left teaches that one is allowed to ignore physical reality; natural sexual assignment at birth based on DNA, in favor of alternate choice, not connected to one's direct DNA.

I thought we already explained the difference between sex (biological) and gender (social construct) months ago?

 

[fantome profane]

I don't know the answer to this question, although it might also depend on what one considers force. If a child is raised in a Christian family, are they forced to become Christians?

Please tell me you are not suggesting that transgender children come from transgender families.

Seriously, I am asking you to think about what you are saying. Don’t just invent nonsense.

 

[Stevicus]

Please tell me you are not suggesting that transgender children come from transgender families.

That was the furthest thing from my mind. You're totally blindsiding me with this response.

Seriously, I am asking you to think about what you are saying. Don’t just invent nonsense.

My only thought was on the word "force" and how it would be defined in this context. What were you thinking about?

 

[fantome profane]

That was the furthest thing from my mind. You're totally blindsiding me with this response.



My only thought was on the word "force" and how it would be defined in this context. What were you thinking about?

It wasn’t me that introduced the concept. I don’t see any reasonable use of the word in this context.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doesn't it seem a bit extreme when someone wants to be referred to as "his Highness"? Shouldn't that require the proof to legally bear that title?

So you would want all the cis kids to prove that they really are cis?

What I'm saying is that not every ridiculous request should be followed.

Good, because I see your request as quite ridiculous.

I don't see a gender change as unusual or worthy to request proof. It doesn't cost much effort.

Wait one minute - you didn't say anything about justifying a *change* to someone's titles; you said you wanted everyone to justify their titles, whatever they are.

After all, would you accept that a kid has to be addressed as "his Highness" just because that's what was on the form when he first enrolled?

But already with "they/them" it may require extensive work if the teacher uses forms that don't have that option. You may be a very special snowflake but if you want me to force to re-write all my forms, that's requesting a bit more than common courtesy and I may question the legitimacy.

Oh no! Not the forms! Won't somebody think of the forms?!

[clutches pearls]

 

[Kooky]

It would be an illegal bearing of a title. At least in Germany. I don't know if you can call yourself a Doctor in the US or elsewhere. "Doctor" Hovind tried that but was called out and doesn't do it any more.

Ages ago, I used to be a fireman; there was a guy in the team whom everyone called "Doctor". He wasn't an academic, he wasn't even close to attaining any sort of license, people just called him "Doctor" for some reason I never figured out. It seems that in Germany, such a harmless, victimless joke would be unthinkable.

EDIT: Now that said, you are chasing after a Red Herring here. The issue was never that kids would illegally claim to be licensed doctors or lawyers, but that they were demanding their teacher respect their students' chosen gender; in addition, said teacher also claimed to obey her religion first and foremost, which to me would be an enormous red flag when dealing with any government employee, because their job would be to serve the law and their legitimate institutions first and foremost.

 

[Heyo]

Ages ago, I used to be a fireman; there was a guy in the team whom everyone called "Doctor". He wasn't an academic, he wasn't even close to attaining any sort of license, people just called him "Doctor" for some reason I never figured out. It seems that in Germany, such a harmless, victimless joke would be unthinkable.

You can call someone "Doctor" as a nickname but you can't pretend to be a Doctor or use it in an official manner (which would apply if a student asked that of a teacher).

EDIT: Now that said, you are chasing after a Red Herring here. The issue was never that kids would illegally claim to be licensed doctors or lawyers, but that they were demanding their teacher respect their students' chosen gender; in addition, said teacher also claimed to obey her religion first and foremost, which to me would be an enormous red flag when dealing with any government employee, because their job would be to serve the law and their legitimate institutions first and foremost.

With my hypothetical I was answering multiple threads, @fantome profane's hypothetical of a teacher calling students names, @Saint Frankenstein's demand that students should prove they are transgender (or more precisely fantome profane questioning that) and the insinuated (but not yet expressed, at least in this thread) demand that teachers should always use the names and pronouns a student demands to be used. There are reasonable demands (like those of trans people to use the usual pronouns for their chosen gender) and there are ridiculous demands (like I showed) that don't have to be followed.

 

[Kooky]

With my hypothetical I was answering multiple threads, @fantome profane's hypothetical of a teacher calling students names, @Saint Frankenstein's demand that students should prove they are transgender (or more precisely fantome profane questioning that) and the insinuated (but not yet expressed, at least in this thread) that teachers should always use the names and pronouns a student demands to be used. There are reasonable demands (like those of trans people to use the usual pronouns for their chosen gender) and there are ridiculous demands (like I showed) that don't have to be followed.

Do you think students would be ridiculous to request to be treated as their chosen gender by their teacher?

 

[Heyo]

Do you think students would be ridiculous to request to be treated as their chosen gender by their teacher?

There are reasonable demands (like those of trans people to use the usual pronouns for their chosen gender)

 

[icehorse]

Do you believe that teachers are free to say whatever they want in front of their students?
Because let me burst that bubble and tell you that this has never been the case in teaching, and is certainly also not the case for any customer-facing job.

All of these jobs have guidelines that ban or require the usage of certain terms or phrases. For example, I am compelled to use correctly gendered language when adressing my students, and I am also compelled to not use racist, sexist, or otherwise denigrating or humiliating speech in front of them (or really, anywhere where people could hear me while I'm on the clock).

I find it absolutely mind boggling that many Americans apparently don't know this and think being made to talk or not talk a certain way is a horrible intrusion into a person's freedom, but at the same time find nothing objectionable in employers putting their staff on constant surveillance, requiring mandatory drug tests to keep one's job, etc.

Can you see the distinction between things that cannot be vs. things that MUST be said?

 

[Kooky]

Can you see the distinction between things that cannot be vs. things that MUST be said?

You mean, like when a salesperson MUST use expressions of politeness regardless of how they are actually feeling towards any given customer? Do you find the intrinsic requirements of sales jobs to be violations of the freedom of speech as well?

Would you find it reasonable that I am not, in fact, allowed to pontificate at my students about the coming socialist world revolution, but rather have to stick to a prescribed curriculum in class, or would you say that this constitutes a violation of free speech?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you see the distinction between things that cannot be vs. things that MUST be said?

Seems that the issue here is about "things that cannot be said."

I doubt that anything would have arisen if the teacher had just used the students' name when he had to refer to a trans or enby student. The issue seems to me that this teacher insisted that he would misgender and deadname trans students.

 

[icehorse]

You mean, like when a salesperson MUST use expressions of politeness regardless of how they are actually feeling towards any given customer? Do you find the intrinsic requirements of sales jobs to be violations of the freedom of speech as well?

Would you find it reasonable that I am not, in fact, allowed to pontificate at my students about the coming socialist world revolution, but rather have to stick to a prescribed curriculum in class, or would you say that this constitutes a violation of free speech?

Congratulations, you are the winner of today's "captain obvious" award

This is not an isolated situation. It is a part of a trend towards the idea that people somehow have the right to not be offended. I would recommend you refresh your memory of Vonnegut's story: Harrison Bergeron.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's outside the experience of most people.

I’m starting to think maybe it should be a mandatory requirement in schools so people learn how to use basic decorum! Geez