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A Bunch of Reasons Why I Question Noah's Flood Story:

night912

Well-Known Member
Its not a matter of who survived “better” it’s a matter of who is more likely to be crushed by a pile of mud early.
The bird that can't fly forever, especially in a violent storm or a fish swimming in its natural habitat? No critical thinking is needed.

In a flood clams in general would have been buried before birds…….this is why we usually find birds “above” clams.
In a flood, humans who died from drowning because they couldn't get into a boat would have been buried before pterosaurs........but every human fossils we've found are ALWAYS "above" pterosaurs.

The key word is “usually” obviously some exceptions are expected.
The key word is "always" obviously because pterosaurs are NEVER found "above" humans.

Evolution also deals with exceptions sometimes we find “simple” animals above complex animals, but nobody makes a big deal because everybody understands that exceptions are expected.
Proving evolution to be false, is NEVER evidence to support that Noah's flood did occur, but you making it a big deal, is because you don't understand logic and/or what evidence is.

again, exceptions are expected
Again, there has never been any exceptions where pterosaurs have been found "above" humans.

I don’t belive that there was a global flood.
I don't just believe that you are lying, it's a fact that you are lying.

All I am saying is that the fossil record doesn’t support evolution nor refutes the global flood. Feel free to correct me and prove me wrong.
All I'm saying is that the fossil record does support evolution and refutes the global flood. Feel free to deny all you want, but the fact remains, you're wrong so prove me wrong if you can.

You might have tons of evidence for evolution, and/or against the flood………………but such evidence is not in the fossil record.
I'm wasn't counting, but if I have tons of evidence for evolution, and/or against the flood..............some evidence is found in the fossil record. The evidence is that, no fossils have ever been found within a single sedimentary layer where human fossils are scattered among other fossils of various animals that are equally as likely as humans to be crushed by a pile of mud. In other words, human fossils should be found in the same sedimentary layer as marine animals such as clams. Also, your ignorance doesn't automatically make a thing to be true. That means that a pile of mud is not considered as a sedimentary layer.

And, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," is only logically valid when being used against general negative claims, but not against specific negative claims like Noah's global flood.



Lets make it easy, can you quote a single example where a fossil site with rabbits was dated, such that if the fossils/layers where billions of years old the dating method would have shown such age?
Let's make it easy, how about you give your definition of "evidence" then present your evidence for your claims instead of asking others to provide examples that are irrelevant to the discussion and only relevant to your strawman arguments. This way we can determine whether or not you understand what "evidence" means so we won't talk pass each other.

Then let's make it even more easier, you exclude any red herring, ad hominem, burden of proof shifting, assertions and/or assumptions in your response to this post.

BTW,
A fact remains a fact regardless of it being used as an ad hominem or you denying it. And an ad hominem is not a fact regardless of you assuming that it is. ;)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Yes it does.
Why do we never find homo sapien in the same geological layer as tyranosourus rex?

Why don't we find gorillas in the same geological layer than homo sapiens?

Why don't we find cealacanths, or crocodiles or tuataras, or horseshoe crabs?..

All these Animals are contemporaneous to humans (they are still alive today) but we don't find fossils in the same laters where humans are found.

So not finding humans and Trex in the same layer doesn't mean that they where not contemporaneous.



Yes it does.
Why do we not find pools of fossilized remains at different parts of the Earth that are dated approx. 6-10k years as we would expect to find if the flood actually oc


A global flood would mess up most dating methods ,

If there was a global flood , dating methods would not work
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
LOL, your questions only reveal your ignorance of how evolution works. What the fossil record and observations show us is that evolution works in different ways in different environments. Now there have been very successful adaptions like eyes and teeth that helped organisms survive and evolve further.

So I disagree with how you frame your question and your assumption thus far about how you think evolution works. I have a vastly better understanding of science than you do, but I don't assume to understand how eyes and teeth evolved, and in conjunction with the other. If I wanted to find out I would do a search for reputable sources that explain how this happened according to the best experts who do this work. And I defer to their expertise and do not question it due to a religious bias.
Ok that is very interesting but irrelevant you didn't refuted my point.

My point being
Teeth evolved 500M years ago but they could have evolved earlier (or after)

There is nothing intrinsic in the theory of evolution that says that teeth must evolve 500M years ago.

So ether refute or grant this point......please do not add irrelevant stuff in your comments.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The point has been refuted, explained and you, once again refuse to accept that, because you want only explanations that support your unrealistic and inaccurate understanding.

Why on earth would an invertebrate develop vertebrate teeth? Why should it have developed. You are the one that needs to explain that. It is your claim. But we all know your famous "pass the buck" approach to burden of proof. Invertebrates evolved prior to vertebrates. You are just wizzing in the wind.

And really, you do not understand this science.

Again, if there where invertebrates with teeth this would simply mean that teeth evolved before vertebrates and invertebrates "split'.

Evolution could have easily explain it


Any disagreement?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Your original point was an attempt to claim that biologists try to backfill the theory when new discoveries are made. Sort of forcing the evidence to fit the theory. Don't forget that. I did read your original post.

It does not work that way.

Ok so do you grant that teeth could have evolved earlier (or after) nothing in evolution says that teeth must have evolved 500M years ago.

Sort of forcing the evidence to fit the theory. Don't forget that. I did read your original post.
If that was my original point, why didn't you quote my actual words ?

But yes my point is and has always been that evolution is flexible and allows for a wide range of data and possible results.

In this reality teeth evolved after vertebrates split, but it could have been different teeth could have evolved before the splitting, that's my point.

You agree with this point, but you won't admit it , because you do t have the intellectual honesty to admit your mistakes
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So you now need to run away from our conversation.

That's understandable. You criticized me for not accepting that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood. However, you cannot substantiate your assertion that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood.
I asked that you state your beliefs so that I might speak to them rather than generalized Creo beliefs. You haven't. Perhaps you would be embarrassed by actually posting them for all to see.
Since you asserted that you believe that Everest, and over one hundred other mountains, grew over 20,000 feet since the flood, I asked you for evidence for that. I asked how that could have happened and no one wrote about it. No one in the whole world. Ever.

You can't answer, so you want to run away. OK. I understand. It's a defensive mechanism used by many Creos. I've gotten used to it.

You criticized me for not accepting that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood. However, you cannot substantiate your assertion that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood
I am talking about professional creationist those that have degrees in science and do research on the topic. ....can you quote a YEC with a degree in science that claims that the flood covered Mt Everest ?

Obviously within the average man you will find YECs that believe that the flood covered mount Everest .

But within the average man you Will Also find evolutionists who claim that we evolved from chimps .... But it would be ridiculous and dishonest to refute evolution under the passion that we evolved from chimps.


Everest, and over one hundred other mountains, grew over 20,000 feet since the flood, I asked you for evidence for that. I asked how that could have happened and no one wrote about it. No one in the whole world. Ever.

Plate tectonics, India "crashed" with Asia creating the Himalaya mountains during the flood or shortly after the flood.

Nobody wrote about. That because there where no humans back then (except for Noah and his family)

This short the video explains (mt Everest part is explained at minute 4:00
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok so do you grant that teeth could have evolved earlier (or after) nothing in evolution says that teeth must have evolved 500M years ago.


If that was my original point, why didn't you quote my actual words ?

But yes my point is and has always been that evolution is flexible and allows for a wide range of data and possible results.

In this reality teeth evolved after vertebrates split, but it could have been different teeth could have evolved before the splitting, that's my point.

You agree with this point, but you won't admit it , because you do t have the intellectual honesty to admit your mistakes
Isn't it amusing that you have been making semantic arguments, like your argument about fossilization and rabbits in the Cambrian, but then when your mistakes are pointed out, you jump on the frailty of semantic arguments. Agree?

Invertebrates developing a clearly vertebrate trait well before the evolution of vertebrates would be a tremendous issue for the theory of evolution and not trivial or easily explained away. Agree?

Such an event would be unpredictable and you do not know enough about this to recognize that fact. Agree?

Intellectual dishonesty is probably not a something you should be throwing at others considering your body of work on this forum. Agree?
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok so do you grant that teeth could have evolved earlier (or after) nothing in evolution says that teeth must have evolved 500M years ago.


If that was my original point, why didn't you quote my actual words ?

But yes my point is and has always been that evolution is flexible and allows for a wide range of data and possible results.

In this reality teeth evolved after vertebrates split, but it could have been different teeth could have evolved before the splitting, that's my point.

You agree with this point, but you won't admit it , because you do t have the intellectual honesty to admit your mistakes
I do not agree with you. The theory cannot be used to predict events where such events have no basis for occurring. It would be intellectually dishonest to persist in a claim like that and I would not do that.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I am talking about professional creationist those that have degrees in science and do research on the topic. ....can you quote a YEC with a degree in science that claims that the flood covered Mt Everest ?

I don't know of any YEC scientists who have degrees in science and do research on the topic. So, no, I can't quote them. It really doesn't matter, because I am not in discussions with them. I am in discussions on RF with people with many different beliefs.

Obviously within the average man you will find YECs that believe that the flood covered mount Everest .

Thank you for that admission.

But within the average man you Will Also find evolutionists who claim that we evolved from chimps .... But it would be ridiculous and dishonest to refute evolution under the passion that we evolved from chimps.

You clearly missed the point. I am not trying to refute the flood by arguing that a fully grown Mt Everest was or was not covered in water. I was refuting what I thought were your beliefs about the flood. When I found out that you were a small mountain person, I refuted your argument by showing that the growth of hundreds of mountains to over 20,000 feet in a comparatively short time was nonsensical.

Likewise, if someone was supporting evolution by asserting that man evolved from monkeys, I would point out to him that his concept of evolution is wrong.

More often than not it is Creos that make the argument that they don't believe in evolution because they don't believe that man descended from monkeys. Those people are either posing strawman arguments or are genuinely ignorant of evolution. People get these ideas from Creo websites. Realistically, today, most Creo websites no longer post that silly argument, but it's already in the minds of lay Creos.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I don't know of any YEC scientists who have degrees in science and do research on the topic. So, no, I can't quote them. It really doesn't matter, because I am not in discussions with them. I am in discussions on RF with people with many different beliefs.



Thank you for that admission.



You clearly missed the point. I am not trying to refute the flood by arguing that a fully grown Mt Everest was or was not covered in water. I was refuting what I thought were your beliefs about the flood. When I found out that you were a small mountain person, I refuted your argument by showing that the growth of hundreds of mountains to over 20,000 feet in a comparatively short time was nonsensical.

Likewise, if someone was supporting evolution by asserting that man evolved from monkeys, I would point out to him that his concept of evolution is wrong.

More often than not it is Creos that make the argument that they don't believe in evolution because they don't believe that man descended from monkeys. Those people are either posing strawman arguments or are genuinely ignorant of evolution. People get these ideas from Creo websites. Realistically, today, most Creo websites no longer post that silly argument, but it's already in the minds of lay Creos.

Well most (if not all) your objections are based on the strawman argument that the waters covers my Everest

And I provided an answer for when/how the big mountains where created. And you ignored such response

So what else do you want me to do ?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Isn't it amusing that you have been making semantic arguments, like your argument about fossilization and rabbits in the Cambrian, but then you when your mistakes are pointed out, you jump on the frailty of semantic arguments. Agree?

Invertebrates developing a clearly vertebrate trait well before the evolution of vertebrates would be a tremendous issue for the theory of evolution and not trivial or easily explained away. Agree?

Such an event would be unpredictable and you do not know enough about this to recognize that fact. Agree?

Intellectual dishonesty is probably not a something you should be throwing at others considering your body of work on this forum. Agree?
Ok so justify your claim


What would prevent teeth to evolve s few M years earlier ? ( Before vertebrates and invertebrates split)?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The bird that can't fly forever, especially in a violent storm or a fish swimming in its natural habitat? No critical thinking is needed.


In a flood, humans who died from drowning because they couldn't get into a boat would have been buried before pterosaurs........but every human fossils we've found are ALWAYS "above" pterosaurs.


The key word is "always" obviously because pterosaurs are NEVER found "above" humans.


Proving evolution to be false, is NEVER evidence to support that Noah's flood did occur, but you making it a big deal, is because you don't understand logic and/or what evidence is.


Again, there has never been any exceptions where pterosaurs have been found "above" humans.


I don't just believe that you are lying, it's a fact that you are lying.


All I'm saying is that the fossil record does support evolution and refutes the global flood. Feel free to deny all you want, but the fact remains, you're wrong so prove me wrong if you can.


I'm wasn't counting, but if I have tons of evidence for evolution, and/or against the flood..............some evidence is found in the fossil record. The evidence is that, no fossils have ever been found within a single sedimentary layer where human fossils are scattered among other fossils of various animals that are equally as likely as humans to be crushed by a pile of mud. In other words, human fossils should be found in the same sedimentary layer as marine animals such as clams. Also, your ignorance doesn't automatically make a thing to be true. That means that a pile of mud is not considered as a sedimentary layer.

And, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," is only logically valid when being used against general negative claims, but not against specific negative claims like Noah's global flood.




Let's make it easy, how about you give your definition of "evidence" then present your evidence for your claims instead of asking others to provide examples that are irrelevant to the discussion and only relevant to your strawman arguments. This way we can determine whether or not you understand what "evidence" means so we won't talk pass each other.

Then let's make it even more easier, you exclude any red herring, ad hominem, burden of proof shifting, assertions and/or assumptions in your response to this post.

BTW,
A fact remains a fact regardless of it being used as an ad hominem or you denying it. And an ad hominem is not a fact regardless of you assuming that it is. ;)


You didn't supported any of your assertions nor refuted any of my claims .


All you have is starman arguments and repeating the same mistakes that have been corrected.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
(Responding to the red letters above)

Aja……..So from the theory of evolution it “flows” naturally that trilobites evolved 500M years ago and mammals 200M years ago?...............(you know that the answer is no)……

Given the structure of the phylogenetic tree, the fossil record, geographic distribution of species, comparative anatomy and comparative genomics,... yes, pretty much: science would not be able to explain mammals in the pre-cambrian.

Then why are you insisting in “rabbits in the Cambrian”? according to you……fossilization is “rare” and therefore even if rabbits lived in the Cambrian it would have been unlikely that they left a fossil. …….agree?

It's kind of a meme. Perhaps you don't know the history of the "rabbits in the pre-cambrian". It was an epic response to a question at some convention or something, where some creationist thought to be clever and asked the speaker how evolution could be falsified, thinking it was unfalsifiable.

Anyhow, any mammal will do.
Or a mammal with feathers.

Something that severely breaks down the tree of life and throws it out of whack.

In general terms, “not finding a fossil in a given “era” doesn’t prove that the animal wisent alive during that era………….agree?

Sure. But there is off course plenty of other evidence to consider as well.
Finding a fossil of a species in some area is not the only way to know. Plenty of other evidence can give you clues.



I'm skipping the rest because I need to go.

And honestly, it's tiring having to deal with your denial and intellectual dishonesty.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Given the structure of the phylogenetic tree, the fossil record, geographic distribution of species, comparative anatomy and comparative genomics,... yes, pretty much: science would not be able to explain mammals in the pre-cambrian.
If mammals would have been found in the Cambrian explosion and trilobites in the Jurassic, how would that effect evolution ? All you have to do is move the clocks a little bit


It's kind of a meme. Perhaps you don't know the history of the "rabbits in the pre-cambrian". It was an epic response to a question at some convention or something, where some creationist thought to be clever and asked the speaker how evolution could be falsified, thinking it was unfalsifiable.

Yes yes but we already agreed that
1 fossilization is hard

2 Cambrian strata is marine strata (making rabbits even harder to appear)

3 in most of the cases layard are dated by the fossils. (Any layer with rabbits/mammals would be dated after the Cambrian by default
.

So even if there where rabbits in the Cambrian fossils are not expected to be found


Or a mammal with feathers.

If there where mammal with feathers in the fossil record this would mean that feathers evolved before mammals and birds "split" evolution would still be consistent
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You don’t have nothing remotely analogous with evolution (talking about the fossil record) all you have is vague predictions where evolution would still be true regardless on what we find in the fossil record.

The sad thing is that instead of admitting that this is a weakness of the theory of evolution (and safe it with other strengths to compensate this weakness) you would rather ignore the weaknesses of your theory and idealized,……. Evolution might not be a religion, but internet evolutionists do act like fanatic religious people.

You do realize that the majority of students who do study biology, and those people who do work professionally in biology-related fields, do not study fossils, or paleontology.

Paleontology is a very specialized field, and not many at all go down that road. Yes, they do required knowledge of Evolution, but people don’t study fossils also required understanding of Evolution.

Evolutionary biology isn’t restricted to paleontology.

Anyone studying botany, the study of all things related to plants, would focus in specific areas, and with so many different species of trees, and other vegetation that exist today, required understanding of Evolution. You don’t need to be expert in fossilized vegetation to study evolution of plants.

Likewise, those people who are studying specific extant and living populations of different animals, also required understanding of Evolution, without the needs of learning about fossils.

And it is the same with studies of fungi, of bacteria and of archaea.

People who specialized in research on bacterial diseases and how to treat these diseases, only need to understand how recent bacteria mutate and evolve, they don’t need study microfossils of primitive bacteria of couple billion years ago. Experts in bacterial diseases and treatments are not paleontologists, so they have no needs to know how bacteria fossilized, and they don’t go out looking for fossils. But experts (in bacterial diseases) do need a firm understanding of Evolution.

There are many different fields in biology, and many of them don’t require knowledge in fossils, and they don’t need to be experts in paleontology.

So your focus on fossil records ignored all other fields in biology when people do need strong foundation in Evolution. Beside that your own understanding on fossil records are laughable, since it is clear that you are clueless in understanding even basic biology.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You do realize that the majority of students who do study biology, and those people who do work professionally in biology-related fields, do not study fossils, or paleontology.

Paleontology is a very specialized field, and not many at all go down that road. Yes, they do required knowledge of Evolution, but people don’t study fossils also required understanding of Evolution.

Evolutionary biology isn’t restricted to paleontology.

Anyone studying botany, the study of all things related to plants, would focus in specific areas, and with so many different species of trees, and other vegetation that exist today, required understanding of Evolution. You don’t need to be expert in fossilized vegetation to study evolution of plants.

Likewise, those people who are studying specific extant and living populations of different animals, also required understanding of Evolution, without the needs of learning about fossils.

And it is the same with studies of fungi, of bacteria and of archaea.

People who specialized in research on bacterial diseases and how to treat these diseases, only need to understand how recent bacteria mutate and evolve, they don’t need study microfossils of primitive bacteria of couple billion years ago. Experts in bacterial diseases and treatments are not paleontologists, so they have no needs to know how bacteria fossilized, and they don’t go out looking for fossils. But experts (in bacterial diseases) do need a firm understanding of Evolution.

There are many different fields in biology, and many of them don’t require knowledge in fossils, and they don’t need to be experts in paleontology.

So your focus on fossil records ignored all other fields in biology when people do need strong foundation in Evolution. Beside that your own understanding on fossil records are laughable, since it is clear that you are clueless in understanding even basic biology.
My focuse on the fossil record is a response to the op and an atempt yo keep the topic simple.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So you now need to run away from our conversation.

That's understandable. You criticized me for not accepting that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood. However, you cannot substantiate your assertion that all Creos believe Everest grew after the flood.
I asked that you state your beliefs so that I might speak to them rather than generalized Creo beliefs. You haven't. Perhaps you would be embarrassed by actually posting them for all to see.
Since you asserted that you believe that Everest, and over one hundred other mountains, grew over 20,000 feet since the flood, I asked you for evidence for that. I asked how that could have happened and no one wrote about it. No one in the whole world. Ever.
It's laughable how they suggest these absurd solutions to the problems of interpreting Genesis literally. To my mind these folks aren't debating us, they are arguing against science itself.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Can you quote a single comment made by me that is not supported by peer review science..(or that it's not trivially and obviously true?)

Please provide the actual quote of my comment so that I can support such claim
Just below, you say that the fossil record does not support evolution. What peer-reviewed paper supports that?

You mean that Hans / prates could have not evolved in s different continent? ..

What part of evolutionary theory (random mutation and natural selection) prevents Hans/prates to evolve in a different continent?
Apparently you don't know how this prediction thing works. That human ancestors would be found in Africa, and not somewhere else, is precisely the point of the prediction. The part of evolutionary theory that predicts it is called biogeography.

Ok so the fossil record doesn't support evolution .

There are other lines of evidence that allows us to conclude that evolution is true .

Agree?
Huh? Where in the world did you get the idea that I would agree to "the fossil record doesn't support evolution"? That's patently ridiculous.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
My focuse on the fossil record is a response to the op and an atempt yo keep the topic simple.
If your focus is on the fossil record then how can you be a creationist? I hear creationists make two major complaints about the fossil record 1) that it is incomplete, so how can we know there was an evolutionary process, 2) that there's a lack of transitional fossils to allow science to conclude evolution happens. These complaints suggest that science can't make a credible conclusion that organisms evolved over time. To creationists the fossils are just a pile of bones. But it doesn't work that way. I use this simple analogy to illustrate how science can conclude a pattern in a lineage of fossils. Look at this collection of numbers:
4 6 8 11 14 15 16 19 22 25 26 29 30 32 34 36 37 38 39 41 43 45 46

Looking at it might suggest it's just a group of numbers. But there's a pattern. The pattern can be seen even though there are missing numbers. Fossils work this way in that fossils in older strata have certain features and as specimens found in newer rock have different features while being recognized as related to other samples. Creationists want to deny that any such patterns can be observed, and that strata can't be dated.

Do you accept the science or do you reject the conclusions experts make regarding the fossil record?
 
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