A Call for Unity in America

[nPeace]

That is not from God, it is from Paul. Paul does not speak for God, only Jesus speaks for God.

But you have a personal opinion regarding what the scriptures mean, and I have a different personal opinion.

That is the entire crux of the issue. You believe they mean x, I believe they mean y.

That's what you said, but is that true?
That's like a child standing in front of a teacher, who said, "No chewing gum in the class." Or during an exam, "No cell phones are allowed in the exam room." and saying to the teacher, after being caught doing both, "Ma'am / Sir, what you said can mean different things."
I think when the teacher dismisses that student they should let the child know, it is the height of wickedness, to take adults to be fools.
The only other reasonable and logical conclusion to be reached is that there is something drastically wrong with that child's intellect.

I don't think the latter is the case with you Trailblazer, so to my mind, there is only one conclusion.

I believe what the scriptures say. You believe you can interpret them to mean what you believe.
It is a matter of you believing the scriptures can mean whatever one wants to believe. Whereas, I believe, as I said before, the scriptures contain the explanations to what it says, and other times, it says what it means.

One case in point...
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

All Scripture is inspired of God.
All Scripture is beneficial for teaching.
All Scripture is beneficial for reproving.
All Scripture is beneficial for setting things straight.
All Scripture is beneficial for disciplining in righteousness.
In order that / So that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Which one of these do we need an interpreter for?
Understandably, if I read this to a 7, 8, 9,...13 year old, they might need to get a dictionary, but simply to understand one word... "What does reproving mean?" Maybe.

After that, they say, "Ah!
All scriptures are there to teach us, correct us, set things straight - for example, say we have a disagreement..., train, or guide us in what is right... in God's eyes of course. So that the man of God - one who want to live to God, may be fully capable [of doing so] - completely equipped... aka, not lacking in anything regarding every good work - what pleases God."

I would say to that child, "Well done! Give me five! Brilliant!" Then I would say, "Is this scripture not precise in what it says - crystal clear?"
Then the child might say, "Well, of course it is! Only... not for a five year old."
I would say, "Gimme five."
There is no excuse.

Honesty, Humility, Qualities of the heart. That's what it's about.
That is the crux of the issue.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's what you said, but is that true?
That's like a child standing in front of a teacher, who said, "No chewing gum in the class." Or during an exam, "No cell phones are allowed in the exam room." and saying to the teacher, after being caught doing both, "Ma'am / Sir, what you said can mean different things."
I think when the teacher dismisses that student they should let the child know, it is the height of wickedness, to take adults to be fools.
The only other reasonable and logical conclusion to be reached is that there is something drastically wrong with that child's intellect.

No, it is NOT the same. No chewing gum in the class." Or during an exam, "No cell phones are allowed in the exam room." has one clear meaning, but as I have demonstrated to you, the scriptures do not have one clear meaning. Logically speaking, if they had ONLY ONE clear meaning, nobody would disagree as to what they mean and there would not be thousands of sects of Christianity.

I don't think the latter is the case with you Trailblazer, so to my mind, there is only one conclusion.

I believe what the scriptures say. You believe you can interpret them to mean what you believe.
It is a matter of you believing the scriptures can mean whatever one wants to believe. Whereas, I believe, as I said before, the scriptures contain the explanations to what it says, and other times, it says what it means.

The scriptures do not SAY anything because they do NOT jump off the page and talk. So all you are saying is they you believe the scriptures according to YOUR interpretation of them, what they mean to you.

What is obvious is that you insist you know what the scriptures MEAN by what is written in the pages.

You believe you can interpret them to mean what you believe. Then you accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing. It is obvious you do not understand what you are doing and no matter what I say it won't matter.

One case in point...
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

All Scripture is inspired of God.
All Scripture is beneficial for teaching.
All Scripture is beneficial for reproving.
All Scripture is beneficial for setting things straight.
All Scripture is beneficial for disciplining in righteousness.
In order that / So that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Which one of these do we need an interpreter for?
Understandably, if I read this to a 7, 8, 9,...13 year old, they might need to get a dictionary, but simply to understand one word... "What does reproving mean?" Maybe.

After that, they say, "Ah!
All scriptures are there to teach us, correct us, set things straight - for example, say we have a disagreement..., train, or guide us in what is right... in God's eyes of course. So that the man of God - one who want to live to God, may be fully capable [of doing so] - completely equipped... aka, not lacking in anything regarding every good work - what pleases God."

I would say to that child, "Well done! Give me five! Brilliant!" Then I would say, "Is this scripture not precise in what it says - crystal clear?"
Then the child might say, "Well, of course it is! Only... not for a five year old."
I would say, "Gimme five."
There is no excuse.

Honesty, Humility, Qualities of the heart. That's what it's about.
That is the crux of the issue.

One case in point...
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
But that is ONLY one case in point. Those verses are easy to understand and have an obvious meaning...

But ALL scriptures are not like that, and that is the problem.

There are other verses that have one obvious meaning:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So why don't Christians all understand what that meaning is? Why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going to come down from heaven and return to earth?

Let's look at a verse that had no obvious meaning.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Most Christians believe that verse means Jesus is saying that He will come back to earth again, but Jesus said in other verses that He was no more in the world. Jesus did not say my body will come again. I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah.

To me, "and receive you unto myself" means the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body. Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and DO anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.

 

[nPeace]

No, it is NOT the same. No chewing gum in the class." Or during an exam, "No cell phones are allowed in the exam room." has one clear meaning, but as I have demonstrated to you, the scriptures do not have one clear meaning. Logically speaking, if they had ONLY ONE clear meaning, nobody would disagree as to what they mean and there would not be thousands of sects of Christianity.

The scriptures do not SAY anything because they do NOT jump off the page and talk. So all you are saying is they you believe the scriptures according to YOUR interpretation of them, what they mean to you.

What is obvious is that you insist you know what the scriptures MEAN by what is written in the pages.

You believe you can interpret them to mean what you believe. Then you accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing. It is obvious you do not understand what you are doing and no matter what I say it won't matter.

One case in point...
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
But that is ONLY one case in point. Those verses are easy to understand and have an obvious meaning...

But ALL scriptures are not like that, and that is the problem.

There are other verses that have one obvious meaning:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

So why don't Christians all understand what that meaning is? Why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going to come down from heaven and return to earth?

The simple answer is, because like you they base their understanding not on what is in scripture, but on what they believe. In other words they build their house from the top down, rather than start at the base - use God's word as the foundation.
Bahaullah has your roof hanging, while you "build".
False religious ideas has their roof hanging while they "build".

 

[Trailblazer]

The simple answer is, because like you they base their understanding not on what is in scripture, but on what they believe. In other words they build their house from the top down, rather than start at the base - use God's word as the foundation.
Bahaullah has your roof hanging, while you "build".
False religious ideas has their roof hanging while they "build".

All you did was obfuscate.

THIS IS WHAT IS IN SCRIPTURE.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

SO WHY DO CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOING TO RETURN TO THE WORLD?

Answer the question.
So why don't Christians all understand what that meaning is? Why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going to come down from heaven and return to earth?

Christianity has your roof building while you build...
The simple answer is, Christians base their understanding not on what is in scripture, but on what they believe.

Your base is Christianity and what it teaches and that is why you interpret the Bible they way you do.

My base is the Baha'i Faith and what it teaches and that is why I interpret the Bible they way I do.

You replied to that post as I was editing it... Here is the rest of the post.

Let's look at a verse that had no obvious meaning.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Most Christians believe that verse means Jesus is saying that He will come back to earth again, but Jesus said in other verses that He was no more in the world. Jesus did not say my body will come again. I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah.

To me, "and receive you unto myself" means the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body. Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and DO anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.

 

[nPeace]

All you did was obfuscate.

THIS IS WHAT IS IN SCRIPTURE.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

SO WHY DO CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOING TO RETURN TO THE WORLD?

Answer the question.
So why don't Christians all understand what that meaning is? Why do most Christians believe that Jesus is going to come down from heaven and return to earth?

Christianity has your roof building while you build...

Your base is Christianity and what it teaches and that is why you interpret the Bible they way you do.

My base is the Baha'i Faith and what it teaches and that is why I interpret the Bible they way I do.

You replied to that post as I was editing it... Here is the rest of the post.

Let's look at a verse that had no obvious meaning.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Most Christians believe that verse means Jesus is saying that He will come back to earth again, but Jesus said in other verses that He was no more in the world. Jesus did not say my body will come again. I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah.

To me, "and receive you unto myself" means the Spirit of Jesus, not His physical body. Also please note that Jesus did not ever say He would come again and DO anything on earth that would require a body, like building a Kingdom of God on earth, as Christians believe.

There is only one foundation T.
It's not my fault if if builders reject that foundation, and start building their own way.
Did you not understand what I wrote?

 

[Trailblazer]

There is only one foundation T.
It's not my fault if if builders reject that foundation, and start building their own way.
Did you not understand what I wrote?

No, I do not understand what you MEAN by what you wrote and now you obfuscated and changed the subject again instead of answering my questions, but I'll play along.
This time answer my questions.

What is the one foundation?
Why is that the one foundation?

 

[nPeace]

No, I do not understand what you MEAN by what you wrote and now you obfuscated and changed the subject again instead of answering my questions, but I'll play along.
This time answer my questions.

What us the one foundation?
Why is that the one foundation?

No thanks. I want to end this conversation, while you seem to want to prolong it. I don't understand why.
It seems as though you are insisting I agree with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

No thanks. I want to end this conversation, while you seem to want to prolong it. I don't understand why.
It seems as though you are insisting I agree with you.

No, it is you who is insisting I agree with you. That is called Projection.

I am just trying to communicate and get answers to my questions. It is called a dialogue.

nPeace said:
There is only one foundation T.
It's not my fault if if builders reject that foundation, and start building their own way.
Did you not understand what I wrote?

You said nothing about "foundation" in any previous post so I told you I did not understand what you wrote, and I asked....

Trailblazer said:
What us the one foundation?
Why is that the one foundation?

 

[nPeace]

No, it is you who is insisting I agree with you. That is called Projection.

I am just trying to communicate and get answers to my questions. It is called a dialogue.

nPeace said:
There is only one foundation T.
It's not my fault if if builders reject that foundation, and start building their own way.
Did you not understand what I wrote?

You said nothing about "foundation" in any previous post so I told you I did not understand what you wrote, and I asked....

Trailblazer said:
What us the one foundation?
Why is that the one foundation?

If you read that I did say something about foundation would that convince you that you are not listening... maybe something is interfering with your mind at this point?
A Call for Unity in America
Bye now. The next day may bring some calm... I hope.
Take care of yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you read that I did say something about foundation would that convince you that you are not listening... maybe something is interfering with your mind at this point?
A Call for Unity in America
Bye now. The next day may bring some calm... I hope.
Take care of yourself.

nPeace said:
The simple answer is, because like you they base their understanding not on what is in scripture, but on what they believe. In other words they build their house from the top down, rather than start at the base - use God's word as the foundation.
Bahaullah has your roof hanging, while you "build".
False religious ideas has their roof hanging while they "build".

So you believe that what is in the Bible is the foundation and that your understanding of the Bible is correct and my understanding is incorrect because it is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I believe that the Christian interpretation of the Bible is on shaky ground because Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah.

I believe that God has laid a brand new foundation through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, which is God's Word for this age..

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

It does not matter what Everyone believe. Everyone's interpretations are infallible to them... no one else.

I believe Everyone's twist the scriptures to their own detriment.

This is why you have to examine all the written evidence with the actual evidence to find which one is telling the truth.

Because Man created religions in such numbers most have to be wrong, in fact, all can be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is why you have to examine all the written evidence with the actual evidence to find which one is telling the truth.

Because Man created religions in such numbers most have to be wrong, in fact, all can be wrong.

You re quoting something I did not say as if I said it. There is probably a forum rule against doing that:

Trailblazer said: ↑
By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

Trailblazer did not say:
It does not matter what Everyone believe. Everyone's interpretations are infallible to them... no one else.

I believe Everyone's twist the scriptures to their own detriment.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You re quoting something I did not say as if I said it. There is probably a forum rule against doing that:

Trailblazer said: ↑
By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

Trailblazer did not say:
It does not matter what Everyone believe. Everyone's interpretations are infallible to them... no one else.

I believe Everyone's twist the scriptures to their own detriment.

By contrast, all you have is a personal opinion as to what they mean, based upon no authority.

Biden is a joke played on you by the Democrats.

He was up against the worse Republican candidate for decades if not centuries and couldn't beat him so effectively he was declared the winner in the first few hours.

 

[nPeace]

nPeace said:
The simple answer is, because like you they base their understanding not on what is in scripture, but on what they believe. In other words they build their house from the top down, rather than start at the base - use God's word as the foundation.
Bahaullah has your roof hanging, while you "build".
False religious ideas has their roof hanging while they "build".

So you believe that what is in the Bible is the foundation and that your understanding of the Bible is correct and my understanding is incorrect because it is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote.

It is the word of God, that one should build on.
If your foundation is not the word of God, your building will be lost.
(Luke 6:46-49) 46 “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? 47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man who in building a house dug and went down deep and laid a foundation on the rock. Consequently, when a flood came, the river dashed against that house but was not strong enough to shake it, for it was well-built. 49 On the other hand, whoever hears and does nothing is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The river dashed against it, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

I believe that the Christian interpretation of the Bible is on shaky ground because Christians have rejected Baha'u'llah.

Sounds like Bahaullah has replaced God's anointed king - the Christ, in your imagination. Psalms 2

I believe that God has laid a brand new foundation through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, which is God's Word for this age..

Yes, I understand you believe that.
I didn't read that in the Bible. To the contrary, I read...
(Hebrews 7:22-25) 22 Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests in succession because death prevented them from continuing as such, 24 but because he continues alive forever, his priesthood has no successors. 25 So he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.
Yes, I know you have some kind of interpretation for this too, but that's your viewpoint. Not scripture.

These verses are clear. Jesus is God's chosen king and high priest... forever. He has no successors... according to what we read in scripture.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the word of God, that one should build on.
If your foundation is not the word of God, your building will be lost.

What Baha’u’llah wrote is the Word of God so my beliefs stand on a firm foundation.

Sounds like Bahaullah has replaced God's anointed king - the Christ, in your imagination. Psalms 2

Since Jesus was never God's anointed king, there is nothing to replace.

Yes, I know you have some kind of interpretation for this too, but that's your viewpoint. Not scripture.

Scripture has no viewpoint, only people have viewpoints.

These verses are clear. Jesus is God's chosen king and high priest... forever. He has no successors... according to what we read in scripture.

No, according to what you read and interpret the scripture to mean.

According to my interpretation of scripture Jesus will have a successor.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[nPeace]

What Baha’u’llah wrote is the Word of God so my beliefs stand on a firm foundation.

Since Jesus was never God's anointed king, there is nothing to replace.

Scripture has no viewpoint, only people have viewpoints.

No, according to what you read and interpret the scripture to mean.

According to my interpretation of scripture Jesus will have a successor.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Great! Are you happy, and satisfied now. Good. We can end on that.
Keep in mind that you made no comment on how you just ignored a scripture that says Jesus has no successor, @Trailblazer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Great! Are you happy, and satisfied now. Good. We can end on that.
Keep in mind that you made no comment on how you just ignored a scripture that says Jesus has no successor, @Trailblazer.

And you you just ignored the scripture that says Jesus will have a successor.

Hopefully we can end this conversation.

 

[nPeace]

And you you just ignored the scripture that says Jesus will have a successor.

Hopefully we can end this conversation.

Yup. We're done. Thank God.

 

[1213]

Healthcare is a humans rights issue.

I think human rights are things like, freedom of speech, freedom to own things… …people should also be free to buy healthcare services, if they want. But, it is not human right to force others to buy it for you. It is not human right to force people to work for others. Taxes are against basic human rights, they make people slaves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

people should also be free to buy healthcare services, if they want.

If they want. But no one should have to pay for what they need.

Taxes are against basic human rights, they make people slaves.

Taxes are how the government gets anything done. And they don't make anyone slaves. You just have to pay them. That's not slavery.

But, it is not human right to force others to buy it for you.

It's not happening if everyone contributes, through taxes, to collectively pay for everyone's healthcare needs.

It is not human right to force people to work for others.

That's basically what wage labor is with a extremely massive emphasis on the need for money for things we need to survive. Employees have schedules set by someone else, often have to wear what someone else tells them they have to wear, must act and present themselves in a way the employer mandates, with an assortment of consequences for failure to obey and comply.