A Candid Discussion on Homosexuality

[Al-Fatihah]

In discussing whether homosexuality is right or wrong, much of the logic that homosexuality should be justified and accepted is based on the argument that it is natural. Secondly, that it is based on two people loving each other, so there is no harm. If this is the case, it seems that these points only raises other issues, which offset the argument that homosexuality is okay and creates difficulty for its acceptance in society. Unless these raised issues are addressed, all of which stems from these points, then the argument that homosexuality is okay will remain invalid. Here, let us have a open-mined, honest, and candid discussion, on the following issues raised from these points.

When you say that homosexuality is natural, then what is the natural way that homosexuals have sex? In other words, explain how sex between those of the same gender is in accordance to nature. Also, if homosexuality is natural, then is it not also an abnormality or a dysfunction? After all, if a person is born with more than 10 fingers, two eyes or less, a tail or wings, etc. we call this an abnormality. Yet a male who is born with the natural ability to produce sperm and make a baby with a female, but has no sexual attraction to a female, why is this not considered an abnormality, rather than natural? The same applies to a female who is created by nature to have a baby by a male, but has no sexual attraction to them.

When you say there is no harm in homosexuality because two people love each other and are happy, then why would it be wrong to sell drugs to someone, as long as they are consenting adults and they are happy?

If homosexual sex is truly based on love, then what is the difference in the sexual nature of attraction between men and women that makes the same sex love each other sexually, but not the opposite sex?

None of these questions are stated to argue that homosexuality is unnatural or wrong. Rather, I only raise this discussion to highlight the problem with the answer that homosexuality is okay because it is harmless and natural. If this is the reasoning for some, then let's not stop there. If this is your reasoning, then it is essential to justify such reasoning if you expect someone to accept that homosexuality is okay because it is natural and based on love and happiness, without answering the following questions presented above.


Let's have a dialogue.

 

[Estro Felino]

Okay....your speech fits.

Let's say that two gays decide not to have sex. They kiss, cuddle, hug. and that's it.

Is that still unnatural?

 

[Sleeppy]

Okay....your speech fits.

Let's say that two gays decide not to have sex. They kiss, cuddle, hug. and that's it.

Is that still unnatural?

What isn't natural? What doesn't follow the natural physical laws of our universe? -- Obviously homosexuality is natural. So are mutations, and anything else existing in our world. The question of whether homosexuality is natural will cause more questions than it answers. Is homosexuality the norm, in human beings or other animals? No.

 

[Jainarayan]

When you say that homosexuality is natural, then what is the natural way that homosexuals have sex?

In any way they find enjoyable, just as heterosexuals do.

If homosexual sex is truly based on love, then what is the difference in the sexual nature of attraction between men and women that makes the same sex love each other sexually, but not the opposite sex?

Brain chemistry and other biological, emotional and perhaps genetic reasons that can't be classified as yes/no, up/down, left/right.

None of these questions are stated to argue that homosexuality is unnatural or wrong. Rather, I only raise this discussion to highlight the problem with the answer that homosexuality is okay because it is harmless and natural.

It's harmless and natural because it happens. Cancer is not harmless but it's natural and it happens. Smoking cigarettes is harmful, not natural but it happens. Building big things out of metal that fly in the sky is not natural but it happens. Again, there are no black/white, yes/no, up/down, left/right answers.

 

[Jainarayan]

Is homosexuality the norm, in human beings or other animals? No.

Like handedness. Left-handedness is less common than right-handedness, but is it abnormal? No, just a variation.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yet a male who is born with the natural ability to produce sperm and make a baby with a female, but has no sexual attraction to a female, why is this not considered an abnormality, rather than natural?

Today we are able to look with microscopes and confirm that sperm are not tiny babies and sperm is not a magical essence that takes life-force from a man. As for abnormality only very rarely does one sperm cell combine with an egg, and that one is the abnormal one. It is the lucky one. Sperm do not go to hell or heaven. Sperm do not care what happens to themselves but are like little energetic bombs that swim, swim, swim and die, die, die.

Today we understand natural selection is better than breeding, that certain men just are not destined to be successful in love with certain women. One rejects the other or the reverse, and this happens for the purpose of having better offspring. This is natural selection, a natural thing with the benefit of strengthening humanity. Gone are the days where people superstitiously believed that morality and sins could be transferred through the blood. They can't! There is no longer a need to breed for morality. Arranged marriages have proven not to be effective in strengthening the race, producing no better offspring than mixed and ad-hock marriages.

Additionally some marriages are rotten to the core and misery for all involved. Yes, so our guidance according to what is 'Normal' doesn't always work out. Some people go through many so-called 'Normal' marriages, never finding something suitable.

 

[allfoak]

All of life is based on the Divine pattern of male + female = the third force.

Rewire your house all male or all female and then plug in your toaster.
Abnormalities exist for the sake of balance.
Everything is dual but must be kept in balance.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Okay....your speech fits.

Let's say that two gays decide not to have sex. They kiss, cuddle, hug. and that's it.

Is that still unnatural?

Response: That is the question. Is it? When one says homosexuality is natural, what does that entail?

 

[Al-Fatihah]

In any way they find enjoyable, just as heterosexuals do.



Brain chemistry and other biological, emotional and perhaps genetic reasons that can't be classified as yes/no, up/down, left/right.



It's harmless and natural because it happens. Cancer is not harmless but it's natural and it happens. Smoking cigarettes is harmful, not natural but it happens. Building big things out of metal that fly in the sky is not natural but it happens. Again, there are no black/white, yes/no, up/down, left/right answers.

Response: Heterosexuals have sex naturally by a male placing his penis in a woman's vagina. Something two men and two women cannot do. So homosexuals do not have sex naturally the same way as heterosexuals.

 

[Jainarayan]

So homosexuals do not have sex naturally the same way as heterosexuals.

Neither do men and women who have anal or oral sex, or masturbate, for that matter. Sorry, that's been used way too often; it's not even a good try.

 

[Parsimony]

It doesn't really matter if it's natural or not, because both helpful and harmful things can be either natural or unnatural:

Helpful/Natural: edible fruit, altruism
Harmful/Natural: tornadoes, disease
Helpful/Unnatural: hospitals, books
Harmful/Unnatural: nerve gas, atomic bombs

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Neither do men and women who have anal or oral sex, or masturbate, for that matter. Sorry, that's been used way too often; it's not even a good try.

Response: Nor did anyone claim it was. So your point is pointless, and refutes your claim that homosexuals have sex naturally the same way as heterosexuals when only heterosexuals can have sex by placing the male penis in a woman's vagina.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Today we are able to look with microscopes and confirm that sperm are not tiny babies and sperm is not a magical essence that takes life-force from a man. As for abnormality only very rarely does one sperm cell combine with an egg, and that one is the abnormal one. It is the lucky one. Sperm do not go to hell or heaven. Sperm do not care what happens to themselves but are like little energetic bombs that swim, swim, swim and die, die, die.

Today we understand natural selection is better than breeding, that certain men just are not destined to be successful in love with certain women. One rejects the other or the reverse, and this happens for the purpose of having better offspring. This is natural selection, a natural thing with the benefit of strengthening humanity. Gone are the days where people superstitiously believed that morality and sins could be transferred through the blood. They can't! There is no longer a need to breed for morality. Arranged marriages have proven not to be effective in strengthening the race, producing no better offspring than mixed and ad-hock marriages.

Additionally some marriages are rotten to the core and misery for all involved. Yes, so our guidance according to what is 'Normal' doesn't always work out. Some people go through many so-called 'Normal' marriages, never finding something suitable.

Response: The question is abnormality. Why is someone born with a tail or extra fingers an abnormality?

 

[Sir Doom]

Its more natural for a man to have sex with another man than it is for a human to drink milk from a cow.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Response: The question is abnormality. Why is someone born with a tail or extra fingers an abnormality?

Actually someone born left handed is considered an abnormality, but that is only due to superstition. Ab-normal should only refer to harmful defects.

 

[Riverwolf]

Response: Heterosexuals have sex naturally by a male placing his penis in a woman's vagina. Something two men and two women cannot do. So homosexuals do not have sex naturally the same way as heterosexuals.

So your argument is more that non-coital sexual activity is unnatural, and that because gay and lesbian partners can't engage in them, they're by extension unnatural?

Well, here's the thing. Yes, only coitus has the chance of producing offspring, but there's also the simple fact that, unless you're sex-respusled, sex is AWESOME. Face it: the vast majority of people don't have sex for the sole purpose of producing offspring; they have sex because they love doing it. Humans, like virtually all other animals, enjoy having sex.

It's not just a procreative activity. It's also a bonding activity, and a pleasurable activity. Both of these are natural. As a result, I fail to see how oral sex or anal sex, or any other form of sexual activity, can be regarded as unnatural when they fit the criteria of being a ton of fun, as well as being bonding for the partners involved.

Besides, other animals engage in oral and anal sex all the time.

 

[Riverwolf]

Actually someone born left handed is considered an abnormality, but that is only due to superstition. Ab-normal should only refer to harmful defects.

Frankly, I think the term "normal" should either shift into meaning more "what I'm used to", or just be discarded altogether. It's becoming an increasingly irrelevant term in other contexts.

 

[ShivaFan]

Hello Al-Fatihah

This is being over analyzed (whoa! maybe the wrong word analyzed). I am not sure why this subject is so important to you. Do you not see the danger you are placing yourself and your family? For example, what would you propose doing about it? For example, let us say you are correct. Then would you consider homosexuality a crime? If so, what would be the punishment for this crime, and who would enforce it?

In nature, nature takes it's own course and "punishes". If it is against nature, then nature will enforce it's will.

Now if it is God, then God will enforce the law and apply the punishment. You do not have to worry. Just watch what happens.

But some want to give the government all the power to enforce this matter and to apply a punishment. But once you give the government the power and ability to punish, the question is what punishment?

What do you think should be the punishment? I am asking, you must have an opinion.

Is it death?
Life in prison?
For the first act? Or the third time? At what point? What if no act is engaged but the person just says "I am homosexual"? Is that enough to arrest and punish? Or is only the act? How do you prove the act actually occured? Do you take a "sample" and then run tests? Or is simply, for example, simply being in bed with the same sex enough evidence?

What if your teenage son fell asleep in the same bed as someone of the same sex? Just a mistake. How do you prove his innocence? Or is all innocence now lost?

This is not nitpicking. Because once you give the government such power, you may be next to be arrested. It may be a mistake. The mistake may be just something to laugh about over time once you are proven innocent if the punishment is minor, let us say a $200 fine.

But let us say the punishment is severe ... let us say death. Swift death. Then the mistake is not so funny. How to you prove you are innocent? You tell the judge, "No! I am married!"... Judge says, "so? Many homosexuals are married. Not good enough"....

"I go to the Mosque every Friday! " you say, "I pray 5 times a day!" ... "so?" says the judge, "We just executed a homosexual yesterday, he went to my Mosque, he prayed always. Now he is dead" says the judge.

So you have to be careful how much power you give government.

So I want to know. Nevermind this debate "natural" or "unnatural"... who will ENFORCE this, and what is the PUNISHMENT? What do you say to this? This is very important to this discussion, it is not changing the discussion. Because no matter what you think the act is, it happens, so what are you going to do about it? Nothing, and leave it to God to do? Or give the government the power? And if government, then it all comes down to WHAT does the government do? At what point are you guilty, thinking it? Almost did it? Did it? How many times? And most important of all, what power will you give humans in government to PUNISH?

 

[Jainarayan]

Response: Nor did anyone claim it was. So your point is pointless, and refutes your claim that homosexuals have sex naturally the same way as heterosexuals when only heterosexuals can have sex by placing the male penis in a woman's vagina.

There are 4 points I wish to make:

1. You said only penis/vagina sex is natural.
2. You're not looking for a discussion but for an argument.
3. You're not looking for a discussion but for an argument.
4. You're not looking for a discussion but for an argument.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

So your argument is more that non-coital sexual activity is unnatural, and that because gay and lesbian partners can't engage in them, they're by extension unnatural?

Well, here's the thing. Yes, only coitus has the chance of producing offspring, but there's also the simple fact that, unless you're sex-respusled, sex is AWESOME. Face it: the vast majority of people don't have sex for the sole purpose of producing offspring; they have sex because they love doing it. Humans, like virtually all other animals, enjoy having sex.

It's not just a procreative activity. It's also a bonding activity, and a pleasurable activity. Both of these are natural. As a result, I fail to see how oral sex or anal sex, or any other form of sexual activity, can be regarded as unnatural when they fit the criteria of being a ton of fun, as well as being bonding for the partners involved.

Besides, other animals engage in oral and anal sex all the time.

Response: I have not made any argument. Rather, I responded to the claim by someone that homosexuals and heterosexuals have sex in the same way. Something that is clearly untrue, since only heterosexuals can have sexual intercourse by putting the man's penis in a woman's vagina. However, the question still remains as to what is the natural way that homosexuals have sex?