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A "Challenge" for Muslim members of this forum

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
-Peacemaker- said:
I'm sorry I just find this fascinating. I'd bet almost everything that I have that you haven't made it through one complete Gospel and yet you claim to have studied the scholarship surrounding this passage
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Okay bet on it. Lol. I thought Jesus taught humility.
 
Aštra’el

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
-I find nothing "horrific" about this particular shooting.

-I would not blame Islam for this shooting, or the Quran. In fact, I do not go blaming entire religions or their holy books for the actions of one individual.

 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
-Peacemaker- said:
So you really thought Jesus teachings as found in the Gospels weren't good enough and that they actually needed to be supplanted by Mohammed's more OT style teaching?
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I request that you don't make fleeting statements like that.

What do you believe? You believe in Jesus or at least claim to. Follow it.

You quoted the adulterous woman's story. It's not there in most early manuscripts and some have it with Asterix marks to show that it's not authentic. Codex b has it sinaiticus, alexandrinus, Vatican us, 65, etc don't have it. Then why do you quote it?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
firedragon said:
You quoted the adulterous woman's story. It's not there in most early manuscripts and some have it with Asterix marks to show that it's not authentic. Codex b has it sinaiticus, alexandrinus, Vatican us, 65, etc don't have it. Then why do you quote it?
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And you claim that it's an interpolation in the absence of scholarly consensus. You over-reach.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
And you claim that it's an interpolation in the absence of scholarly consensus. You over-reach.
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Speak to any Bible scholar. You want names? Richard Baukham, ff Bruce, Nolan, James white, Bart ehrman. Speak to any PhD. It is scholarly consensus. Check Bible translations. E. G. Tniv.
 
uncung

uncung

Member
AsianActivist said:
By now you have no doubt heard about the horrific attacks against members of America's LGBT community committed by one of your own on American soil.

My challenge to you is:

Will you condemn these attacks as being backwards and barbaric, in a genuine manner of reconciliation, WITHOUT trying to deflect the blame from Islam? In other words, can you admit that there are verses in the Quran that can be used to justify homophobic terrorism?

Secondly, will you condemn those verses?
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It is not my business since I merely focus on muslims Fallujah and Syria who were killed by U.S troops.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
firedragon said:
Speak to any Bible scholar. You want names? Richard Baukham, ff Bruce, Nolan, James white, Bart ehrman. Speak to any PhD. It is scholarly consensus....
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No, it is not. See Pericope Adulterae. Also, from Recent and Previous Research on the Pericope Adulterae (John 7.538.11) by Chris Keith in Currents in Biblical Research 2008; 6; 377:

In the face of this evidence, a clear and overwhelming majority of scholars conclude that PA is not original to the Gospel of John, such that it is not necessary or possible to list them all here. Contrary to the practice of some (Strachan 1941: 204; Burge 1984: 144; Rius-Camps 1993: 149; Beasley-Murray 1999: 143; Lincoln 2005: 524), however, one should resist describing this as a ‘consensus’, ‘unanimous’, or ‘universal agreement’ due to frequent attempts to prove or support the Johannine authenticity of the material (A. Johnson 1964; 1966: 91-96; Trites 1974: 137-46; Hodges 1979: 318-32; 1980: 41-53; Baylis 1989: 172; Heil 1991: 182-91; see also Bengel 1873: II, 348, 352; Heil 1994: 361-66). Strauss represents a mediating position by stating that ‘a decision on the subject cannot be hazarded’ (1972: 410; also Hendricksen 1954: 35).
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Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Musing Bassist said:
Well, the teachings of Jesus as congruous with what Islam states are such. Corrupt Christian texts are to be ignored.

Apples and oranges and whatnot.
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According to Islam, everyone from Moses to Jesus is a prophet of God and they are to follow their teachings. To them, the tainting of the Christian text comes from promoting Jesus as Messiah.
-Peacemaker- said:
I'd love to meet a Muslim that's actually read the Gospel
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I've known a bunch of them. However, I've known some Christians who haven't even read the Bible. Parts of the Quran such as Surah 3:3 specifically state that the laws of Moses and Jesus were given to the world to guide the world. Though they believe parts of the Tanakh and NT were subtracted and new parts added, to a Muslim those books still contain the teachings and ways of God and his prophets, and have messages to live a good life.
Musing Bassist said:
Much of the justification for the quranic revelation is that the Jews and Christians have distorted the authentic teaching. Thus the Christian and Jewish Scriptures have dubious, if any validity. So saying that Muslims follow Jesus is a rather meaningless statement. Their Jesus is not necessarily the Christian Jesus.
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That is blatantly wrong as Muslims are instructed to read those books and follow the teachings of the prophets such as Moses and Jesus.
uncung said:
It is not my business since I merely focus on muslims Fallujah and Syria who were killed by U.S troops.
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Or killed by other Muslims, which has been the case since ISIS started capturing territory. (and, actually, long before even Bin Laden became obsessed with his anti-American preaching)
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
No, it is not. See Pericope Adulterae. Also, from Recent and Previous Research on the Pericope Adulterae (John 7.538.11) by Chris Keith in Currents in Biblical Research 2008; 6; 377:

​
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Your post itself says "In the face of this evidence, a clear and overwhelming majority of scholars conclude that PA is not original to the Gospel of John"

This is old scholarship mate. And I have given you many scholars you can consult on this. Dr. Keith has concentrated on this and I agree that you cant say unanimous or consensus in his sense of his book on it. There could always be new possibility as he says. Thats mainly because these verses appear and disappear through time. Some new manuscripts have omitted this story while older ones have it (e.g. Bazae) but the oldest manuscripts as a flat agreement has omitted this.

There are some manuscripts that have left that part blank because they are aware of the story, but didnt believe it to be part of the original or/and spurious (e.g. Petropolitanus). Which is why the NRSV has put them within brackets. RSV with 50 different denominations and 32 bible scholars agree. I would call that consensus.

But academically, we should leave it as not conclusive because that leaves more room for further thought. Well, thats the way it is.

Cheers.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
Given that I'm 70 and that my first reference to the adulterae pericope on this board was back in May 2004 ...

... no. :)
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You're 70? Hmm. Youthfulness seeps through the internet (If you are). Lol. And may 2004 I was in studying. Thats 7 years before I finished my final thesis. Thus, all due respect Jayhawker.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
firedragon said:
You're 70? Hmm. Youthfulness seeps through the internet (If you are). Lol. And may 2004 I was in studying. Thats 7 years before I finished my final thesis. Thus, all due respect Jayhawker.
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You'll find no youthfulness seeping out of me young man. :)

L'Shalom ...
 
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