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A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
And when it comes to being accurate in my beliefs concerning actual reality, the best way to strive for being faultless, is obviously by only believing those things for which there is objective, independently verifiable evidence..
..and that includes disbelief in God..
I see that lots of people believe in the Bible and Qur'an, and I also see
that there is a good reason to believe.

You prefer to "err" on the side of caution, and think that there is probably no creator .. none superior,
and that this life is all there is .. da da .. da da..
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
..and that includes disbelief in God..

Disbelief, is not a belief. :rolleyes:

I see that lots of people believe in the Bible and Qur'an, and I also see
that there is a good reason to believe.

I see no good reasons to believe. And whenever people give me their reasons to believe, I see that they aren't good reasons.

You prefer to "err" on the side of caution, and think that there is probably no creator .. none superior,
and that this life is all there is .. da da .. da da..
Not quite sure what you are saying, but it seems you are making the classic mistake of misrepresenting what atheism is.

Theism is the claim.
I am unconvinced of said claim. That, and only that, makes me an atheist.

For all practical intents and purposes that means I go through life as if the claim is false, yes. But that is out of necessity, not out of conviction.

I don't make the claim that there are no gods. I don't lose any sleep over that nor do I consider it a meaningful claim.


Consider an analogy...
Let's say that we are in a car on a high way.
You claim that up ahead, a pile of invisible rocks is blocking my way.
I don't believe your claim. I'm not claiming there is no such pile of rocks. I just don't believe your claim that there is.
Due to this disbelief, I will not bother changing lanes or slamming my breaks. I will just drive on as if there is no such pile of rocks.

This is, again, out of practical necessity.

Or consider the analogy of the court case.
A defendant is either guilty OR innocent. But only the claim of guilt is discussed.
When the defendant "wins" the case, he is NOT ruled "innocent". He is instead ruled "not guilty".

And as a result, he is set free. So out of practical necessity, the defendant is treated as if he is innocent (not guilty).
But he is not ruled innocent. The case wasn't about determining that. It is about determining guilt.
The defendant is considered innocent until shown guilty.

So as an atheist, you could say that I rule god to be "not guilty" of existing.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, believers believe in God because of the evidence that atheists are too blind to see.
And here you go again with this false accusation. You accuse atheists of being blind but fail to show anyone that there is something to see. There's no evidence. Why target atheists? You don't accuse Muslims or Christians for being blind to what you think God is. They think God is something different, yet they aren't blind to your evidence? That strikes me as insincere. You either have some enlightened truth or you don't, and that would include other believers who don't agree with your take on "truth".

Evidence for God is in all three of these holy scriptures, the Bible, the Qur'an and the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
You offer no evidence for this either, so your claim is rejected. Haven't you learned by now your unsupported opinions mean nothing unless you can make a sound argument with adequate evidence? The arrogance of believers (I say so therefore it's true) is astounding, and it is another strike against you all saying you have some sort of divine truth that only you can see. And then accuse thinkers of being blind. The irony cup overfloweth.

You have that backwards. The believer knows what sufficient evidence to justify belief looks like because they have it.
That is why they are believers.
Believers are motivated by their own desires and that makes them succeptible for confirmation bias. If believers really wanted a more tuned understanding of truth they would develop critical thinking skills and listen to critical thinkers. But religious truth isn't a rational process that seeks factual truth, it seeks some framework that makes the ego feel good and significant. This is why your evidence is inadequate for critical thinkers and why religions are not factually true. That's how the community of believers can have different versions of God than you, and no version can be understaood as true and valid.

You know critical thinkers have a high standard, and you don't care. That is indifference to truth. You can claim to have belief, but not truth.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There's no such thing.
Claims are never evidence.
Claims require evidence.


Exactly.

Indeed. Got any?
And the "evidence" of religious claimants comes down to very liberal meaning assignment to texts and lore, not facts. It's inadequate for critical thinkers.

It's like Jim claims he's the sexiest man alive and Dave asks him how he knows, and Jim says his grandmother says so. Dave will be blind and not accept the evidence of grandmother's say so. Obviously something is wrong with Dave, he won't accept the evidence even though Jim sees it.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
..and that includes disbelief in God..
I see that lots of people believe in the Bible and Qur'an, and I also see
that there is a good reason to believe.
Of course you do, but for some reason you can't articulate it in a debate forum. So more self-serving comments from believers who can't explain why any non-believer should adopt their set of implausible concepts. How long will it take before believers will learn that you repeating your beliefs and unsupported claims doesn't do anything to advance your position? You look more desperate and emotional.

And it's not as if other believers agree with you. Baha'i don't think your version of God is valid. How do you feel about that? Christians reject Muhammad as a legitimate prophet, your feelings about Christians is what? I don't see you telling them how blind they are to the truth. Why the bias?
You prefer to "err" on the side of caution, and think that there is probably no creator .. none superior,
and that this life is all there is .. da da .. da da..
Religious beliefs of gods and creators is baseless. So in the 21st century why do believers still think it's valid to believe? Social influence and pressure? Because it is easier to conform to a religious framework to reduce stress of being an independent thinker? Less personal responsibility? Not capable of critical thinking so default to the ease of belief?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

Religious beliefs of gods and creators is baseless. So in the 21st century why do believers still think it's valid to believe? Social influence and pressure? Because it is easier to conform to a religious framework to reduce stress of being an independent thinker? Less personal responsibility? Not capable of critical thinking so default to the ease of belief?

So what is your evidence that you are rational? That is an idea older that Christianity.
In going through old ideas, I didn't stop at religion. How about you?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
..you don't say..
..so you do not believe what the Bible and Qur'an teach .. so you dismiss it
as evidence of G-d.
@Trailblazer doesn't either. She had a few select bits used to support what Baha'u'llah wrote. How do you feel that she rejects what the Quran teaches? Do you accept what Baha'u'llah wrote, and follow him as a messenger? If you are correct she is wrong just like atheists.
You do not have to believe .. you can imagine that it is all made up, and part of
a giant conspiracy.
I do not dismiss them in that fashion.
I suggest you are part of a passive, modern conspiracy of belief that you play both beneficiary and victim. You benefit because you have a shared framework of implausible concepts to conform to, but victim because you are not free to think beyond what you believe. This is how the human brain evolved and how religion/dogma evolved with it. It served a huge advantage to early humans as the tribalism motivated mutual commitment and cooperation. In modernity and better weapons it only helps keeps human populations under control. We have social philosophies and laws to maintail order, we don't tribalism to conform to group norms. So religion might be useful in small communities but is a liability in larger populations and globally. Look at Islamic terrorism and the global effects. "American exceptionalism" has been a bad influence as well, and that is a very tribal attitude driven in large part by Christian evangelicalism. I suggest it is wise to minimize attraction to tribal norms.

I suggest religion these days is a kind of conspiracy because beievers have critical thinking and critical analysis available to them, yet it's their preference to reject reason and defer to the comfort of religious frameworks. That is fear driving the mind.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So what is your evidence that you are rational?
The evidence would be whether I use reasoning competently by following the rules, avoiding fallacies. Do you see any mistakes? If so feel free to point them out. Note that not believeing isn't a mistake.
That is an idea older that Christianity.
In going through old ideas, I didn't stop at religion. How about you?
That's a broad question. The ancient Greeks had vastly more sophisticated ideas than the Caananites, Hebrews, Christians, and Muslims. Even ancient Asian philosophies had excellent insights.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The evidence would be whether I use reasoning competently by following the rules, avoiding fallacies. Do you see any mistakes? If so feel free to point them out. Note that not believeing isn't a mistake.

That's a broad question. The ancient Greeks had vastly more sophisticated ideas than the Caananites, Hebrews, Christians, and Muslims. Even ancient Asian philosophies had excellent insights.

But not all rules are objective and now we enter social philosophies. Note the plural please.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's a common belief.
True
Classic argument ad populum
Not ad populum AT ALL, since I did not say God exists is true because many or most people believe it.
I think you need to learn the fallacies.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And here you go again with this false accusation. You accuse atheists of being blind but fail to show anyone that there is something to see. There's no evidence. Why target atheists? You don't accuse Muslims or Christians for being blind to what you think God is. They think God is something different, yet they aren't blind to your evidence? That strikes me as insincere. You either have some enlightened truth or you don't, and that would include other believers who don't agree with your take on "truth".
It is not an accusation, it is a statement, and it is not false.
The other believers are blind to who Baha'u'llah was, but they are not blind to the existence of God. Atheists are blind to the existence of God.
You offer no evidence for this either, so your claim is rejected.
I have offered the evidence over and over and over and over and over and over again and you have rejected it over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Why are we will doing this?
Believers are motivated by their own desires and that makes them succeptible for confirmation bias.
I cannot speak for other believers but I have no desire to believe in God so that just blew your claim right out of the water.
My late husband could testify to this is he was still alive, since I told him I wish I could become an atheist.
I believe God exists because of Baha'u'llah, period. That doesn't mean I want to believe in God but I cannot not believe what I know exists.
You know critical thinkers have a high standard, and you don't care. That is indifference to truth. You can claim to have belief, but not truth.
Atheists are not critical thinkers because if they were they would be able to figure out that God exists, considering all the evidence taht is out there.
 
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