A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[muhammad_isa]

In my example, the tin foil was said to protect yourself from undetectable dragons

That's childish.
Life after death is not childish .. a significant number of adults consider it seriously.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would like to show graphically what a liar God is. Read the promise he makes for us:

Jeremiah 29:11​

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Here's God's promise for prospering and not harming this 12 year old child who will likely be dead of dysentery before she is 13.

Got has real great plans to prosper this kid, doesn't he??????

View attachment 77523

Jeremiah 29:11​

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Any logical person would ask themselves what this verse means.
How does God plan to prosper us and not to harm us and what are God's plans to give us hope and a future?

I can tell you what God's plans are not. They are not to come down to earth and do what humans are responsible for doing.

 

[F1fan]

Please explain .. why would tinfoil save you from hell?

It’s no less absurd than thinking a God exists and you pick some religion’s moral code, even though there are others to pick from. The whole idea of heaven and hell can’t be taken seriously.

No second thoughts don't bother .. it is not mentioned in the Bible or Qur'an..
..I wonder why?

It’s not as if believers don’t make up their own ideas that bastardize some previous versions of their religion. Anything goes. You picked the version of islam you like.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course .. that is the whole point..

Idd it is. A corrupt morality.

"Oh mankind .. don't do this .. you will eventually regret it"
"Oh mankind .. do this .. you will be happy with the result"

So, a reward or a punishment.
Not just out of goodness / kindness. Not just because it's the good thing to do.

Instead, promises of rewards or threats or punishment. Corrupt motivations.

If God did not inform us, then we would have good reason to complain.
It is our duty to know the law .. ignorance is no excuse.
..but if the law remains hidden..

Morality isn't about following laws.
Morality is about understanding impact of behavior and empathy.

I don't need someone to threaten me with jail or torture in order for me to not rape people.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's childish.
Life after death is not childish .. a significant number of adults consider it seriously.

As a sidenote: the amount of adults taking your specific brand of islam seriously, is a significant minority as well. A majority of other people take other unfalsifiable things seriously that you don't believe to be correct and you live your life assuming those things are wrong also.

But, as the gif illustrates: WOOSH!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don't believe that God 'intends' for anyone to suffer, suffering is just part and parcel of living in a material world, and it is unavoidable. Since God created this material world knowing people would suffer, if you want to blame God, go on ahead, but don't expect God to jump in and prevent the suffering that is built into the design of the world.

Also, don't expect God to play Superman and rescue people from the conditions of the world. God has enjoined humans to fix what is wrong in the world, e.g., cure diseases, put an end to starvation. These are not things that God is responsible for since God gave humans a rational mind and free will to make the world a better place to live in. God is not responsible to intervene in this world and do things that God expects humans to do. The only way that God intervenes in this world is by sending Messengers who reveal the instructions for humans delineating how they are supposed to change this world.

You've described a god indistinguishable from nonexistence. Don't expect that god to do this and don't expect it to do that. You say that it built suffering into its design and don't expect any help from it. Use your rational mind and fix the world yourself. That position is not far from mine, an atheist and humanist.

Why would it matter whether such a god exists or not?

One is not obliged to give money to "a church", unless they choose to.

Yes, if they want to be a part of any given congregation, they'll be asked to give money regularly, and they may choose to comply or not. What's your point?

Conversely, for those who steal, it is against their souls..
..be it tax evasion, or otherwise.

Oddly specific of you to specify that crime. Using somebody else's Netflix account is also stealing as is counterfeiting currency. And you're fond of mentioning usury in a judgmental way. Why did you specify tax evasion?

I hold my moral values, as I perceive their wisdom.

You hold the values you do because they are the values your religion wants for you. Like every other adherent with a received moral code, you have agreed to let them make those decision for you and to call them wisdom.

I do not claim that "me" is the judge between right and wrong .. I claim that G-d has
given me wisdom, due to my respect for Him.

That is you and your choices.

One does not get "the prize" because they want to grab it .. an ill-intentioned act holds no prize.

The humanist find the intention childlike when the motive to behave a particular way is to obtain pleasure and/or avoid the unpleasant. It's natural and normal under a certain age. Pets, too.

which implies that you know better than God

He doesn't believe in gods. Neither do I. What the humanist, whose moral compass is internal, says, is that he knows right from wrong better than priests and others speaking for unseen gods.

why would tinfoil save you from hell?

Why would a human sacrifice save you from hell?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Morality isn't about following laws.
Morality is about understanding impact of behavior and empathy.

Again, you think that you are able to do that better than God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You hold the values you do because they are the values your religion wants for you.

No .. I hold the values I do, because I believe that they are from G-d..
..and my experience shows me that they are correct.
If I thought that they were wrong, I would no longer believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, you think that you are able to do that better than God.

NOBODY can do 'better' than God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You've described a god indistinguishable from nonexistence. Don't expect that god to do this and don't expect it to do that. You say that it built suffering into its design and don't expect any help from it. Use your rational mind and fix the world yourself. That position is not far from mine, an atheist and humanist.

I have described a God that does not intervene in this world to fix things that humans are responsible for fixing.
Don't 'expect' that God to do this and don't 'expect' God to do that, since God only does what God chooses to do.
Suffering is built in and sometimes we get assistance, at God's discretion.

Why would it matter whether such a god exists or not?

It matters because God rules and maintains all of existence. God also reveals His Will to Messengers in every age to provide guidance for humans.

 

[CG Didymus]

You've described a god indistinguishable from nonexistence. Don't expect that god to do this and don't expect it to do that. You say that it built suffering into its design and don't expect any help from it. Use your rational mind and fix the world yourself. That position is not far from mine, an atheist and humanist.

Why would it matter whether such a god exists or not?

I don't think all religions agree with this Baha'i's interpretation. The God in the Bible answers prayers and interacts with people and is very involved. But, if those things didn't happen and aren't true, then what are we to believe about God? The God of the Bible is fictional? But the God that doesn't get involved, except for sending a manifestation once in a while, is real?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The God in the Bible answers prayers and interacts with people..

..not in the way that you might think .. G-d does not talk to us all on an individual basis.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think all religions agree with this Baha'i's interpretation. The God in the Bible answers prayers and interacts with people and is very involved.

The God that Baha'is believe in also answers prayers, but only at His own discretion. God does not interact with people because God is not a person.

But, if those things didn't happen and aren't true, then what are we to believe about God? The God of the Bible is fictional?

I believe that much of what is written about God in the Bible is fictional. Why read an old book when we now have a "new" Revelation from God?

But the God that doesn't get involved, except for sending a manifestation once in a while, is real?

That is pretty much it. God send the Manifestations to get involved with humans. Why should God get involved with humans? God is not a human.
Maybe you need to brush up on the Baha'i version of God, which makes a helluva lot more sense than the Christian version.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

 

[CG Didymus]

..not in the way that you might think .. G-d does not talk to us all on an individual basis.

Well, some people in some Christian sects seem to believe he does. But, of course, they include Jesus and the Holy Spirit as being God. And some go to the extreme of believing their prayer has been answered before it has been answered. That kind of shows just how much faith they have, I guess.

But then what about God in the other religions, like Hinduism that has sects that believe in several Gods and Goddesses? I suspect the people in those sects believe their prayers have gotten answered, and that their God does communicate with them. People believe all sorts of things... contradictory things. Even Baha'is have said that they had visions or dreams of Abdul Baha. That's a way that their God is communicating with them from the spirit world. I wouldn't be surprised is some Muslims have had something similar happen to them.

Oh, and the definition of God by trinitarian Christians is definitely not the same as what Islam teaches, but is what the Baha'i Faith says about God compatible with Islam?

 

[Trailblazer]

Even Baha'is have said that they had visions or dreams of Abdul Baha. That's a way that their God is communicating with them from the spirit world.

Visions or dreams of Abdu'l-Baha is not God communicating with that Baha'i.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why are you applying that promise to that kid?

Vs4 says: “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says to all the exiled people, whom I have caused to go into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon,”

Was that kid an exile sent to Babylon?
No.

I doubt he even knows Jehovah, let alone worship Him.

 

[F1fan]

That's childish.
Life after death is not childish .. a significant number of adults consider it seriously.

Not due to facts and coherent reasoning. If any adult actually believes these ideas I would suspect they never give it much thought. If they did, perhaps they would realize how absurd they are.

 

[F1fan]

Again, you think that you are able to do that better than God.

Your God directs your fellow Muslims to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings (according to your fellow Muslims, who we should trust as much as you want us to trust you). I trust @TagliatelliMonster is vastly better at morality than your God.

 

[CG Didymus]

..not in the way that you might think .. G-d does not talk to us all on an individual basis.

But does he talk to some? And could he talk to all? And, most of the time, Baha'is only focus on the people they claim to be manifestations. They say those people pre-existed then incarnated into a human body. But what about the prophets? The Bible is filled with prophets that were told things supposedly by God. Why could they hear God and others couldn't? Were they only in Judaism? Or are there prophets in all religions? And are there prophets these days that can hear from God?

 

[F1fan]

No .. I hold the values I do, because I believe that they are from G-d..

So the moral arbiter is YOU. You believe your values are from God and you could be mistaken.

..and my experience shows me that they are correct.

Of course it does since you are the one in charge and making decisions.

If I thought that they were wrong, I would no longer believe.

You would want to think you could be mistaken, and what ego is excited to admit poor judgment and errors?