A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[CG Didymus]

Yes .. there are scores of people locked up in Iran, claiming to be the Mahdi..
..oh well

And are any of them the true one? And how would we know? I think the Baha'i Faith is close enough to deserve a serious consideration, but I'm finding lots of things that I think are possible not true about them. What am I supposed to do? Let it slide?

 

[Trailblazer]

And are any of them the true one? And how would we know? I think the Baha'i Faith is close enough to deserve a serious consideration, but I'm finding lots of things that I think are possible not true about them. What am I supposed to do? Let it slide?

Imo, you need to let these things slide before it is too late to change your mind.
I am only looking out for your best interests since nobody else is here to do it.

FYI, there are things I have had to let slide because I know I am wrong even though I think I am right.
Sometimes it's hard to put my feelings or my ego aside but that's the key to true understanding.

 

[F1fan]

We absolutely do believe in the same God, the one true God.
There is not a Baha'i God and a Muslim God. There is only one God, the one true God.

Then the "one true God" suffers from multiple personality disorder.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then the "one true God" suffers from multiple personality disorder.

No, God does not suffer from that since God knows who He is, the one and only true God!
It is the religious people who don't know who God is and thus have multiple beliefs about the one true God.

 

[F1fan]

No, God does not suffer from that since God knows who He is, the one and only true God!

Nonsense, what you are other believers describe is clearly a mental disorder if it is all the same God.

It is the religious people who don't know who God is and thus have multiple beliefs about the one true God.

You are referring to yourself since you are a religious person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense, what you are other believers describe is clearly a mental disorder if it is all the same God.

Nobody has a mental disorder. People simply have different religious beliefs, just like people drive different models of cars.
Jews, Muslims, and Baha'is know that it is the same God we all believe in, so we are all driving the same model of car, but other people drive other models of cars because people like their own model better than the other models.

You are referring to yourself since you are a religious person.

I do not have multiple beliefs about the one true God. I only have one belief.
Since I am a Baha'i I know who the one true God is. Jews and Muslims also know that there is one true God.

 

[F1fan]

Nobody has a mental disorder.

Really? Mental disorders aren't a real phenomenon?

People simply have different religious beliefs, just like people drive different models of cars.

Different makes and models of cars aren't the same car. There are different Gods in human history, they aren't the same. Even the versions of God that Christians took from Jews was vastly different, unrecognizable. If all these diverse religions were referring to the same God there would be remarkable similarities. There isn't. It's not just the concepts of the Gods, it is what the Gods demand of humans that define God, and that is not in any way consistent. Look at how far different Universalist Christians are from far right Evangelicals. Hearing what God demands from these two divided camps would not leave a person thinking they are the same religion and God. So how do you account for this if the God actually exists? Human error? Or many, mnay different Gods?

Jews, Muslims, and Baha'is know that it is the same God we all believe in, so we are all driving the same model of car, but other people drive other models of cars because people like their own model better than the other models.

That's the most basic and rough core conceptually. But when you get into the specifics this "one God" is very different. These differences are irreconciable. Why did so many people want to change God into some better form for them? How does "one" God get revreented in so many different ways to a degree that a whole new religion comes from it? Jesus is crucial to Christians, but to Jews, Muslims, Baha'i, and other religions, nothing. Just one God only has a son in one religion, and not the others. That's a serious discrepancy.

I do not have multiple beliefs about the one true God. I only have one belief.

Sure, you belong to one religion, and there isn't only ONE religion. Other religions believe in s different version of God than you. For example you don't think God interacts directly with people, but all other religions of your God does. Maybe God doesn't like Baha'i peope as much as other religions. The "one true God" interacts with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, but not Baha'i. Only Baha'i get the brush off from the "one true God". How does that make you feel?

Since I am a Baha'i I know who the one true God is. Jews and Muslims also know that there is one true God.

Yeah, the "one true God" wants nothing to do with you, he sends a messenger. But He does interact with Jews and Muslims.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True

Not ad populum AT ALL, since I did not say God exists is true because many or most people believe it.
I think you need to learn the fallacies.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

Your post came across as an argument ad populum to me, too.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then the "one true God" suffers from multiple personality disorder.

Nonsense, what you are other believers describe is clearly a mental disorder if it is all the same God.

Yeah, the "one true God" wants nothing to do with you, he sends a messenger. But He does interact with Jews and Muslims.

Supposedly, according to Baha'i beliefs this one true God sent various messengers/manifestations. Supposedly, the "original" messages were consistent, but that "original" message got lost and all we have is a misinterpreted, distorted and corrupted message. So, what do Baha'is do with those distorted Scriptures? They pick and choose what they want out of them to put together "evidence" that supports their beliefs and prophet.

Is Krishna an incarnation and did he teach reincarnation? Baha'is say "no"... That those are misinterpretations. With Buddha, Baha'is searched far and wide to find a reference about God in Buddhist Scriptures. Other than that, I doubt they believe anything else in those Scriptures is accurate. With Judaism, God is involved with his chosen people. He was in the garden with Adam. He sent fire down to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He led his people through the wilderness. And he sent plagues on the Egyptians to get them to let his people go. With Christianity, he had a star guide the Magi to the baby Jesus. And sent an angel to tell the shepherds. He spoke from heaven saying that he was pleased with his son, Jesus. And later, he raised Jesus from the dead.

Superstitious and mythical beliefs? Embellishments added into the story? Yeah, I could agree with that. And that's kind of what Baha'is say. They have no problem denying some or all of these types of things, except for the virgin birth, which they do believe in. So, after they explain away all these things what is left? Bits and pieces of a continuous story of how one God still interacted with people but only by sending his messenger/manifestation.

And that's all they want and need from the Scriptures of the other religions. That's all they need to "prove" that their prophet is the promised return of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and anybody else that was ever promised to return.

To me, there's just too many holes in the Baha'i claims. Like where does it say in the Bible that there will be four "The Messiah's"? Where in the NT does it say Christ will return as Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Same with Buddhism, how many "Maitreya's" are supposed to come? How many Krishna's in Hinduism are supposed to come. All I've seen is that Buddha was one and then Kalki. Where does it say anything about Jesus, Muhammad or the Bab? Baha'is jump over them and claim Baha'u'llah is the promised Kalki Avatar. It's not consistent. But, we're supposed to ignore all this and let it slide? What happened to the Baha'i concept of investigation of truth? If there's issues, then we can't let them slide. If there aren't good and reasonable explanations and answers, then how can some of us be expected to believe the Baha'i interpretation?

 

[Trailblazer]

Your post came across as an argument ad populum to me, too.

I said that atheists comprise a very small percentage of the world population.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

Thus it seems to me that the atheists and agnostics are just unable to understand what evidence for God looks like.

That is not ad populum, since I did not say God exists is true because many or most people believe it.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

 

[F1fan]

Supposedly, according to Baha'i beliefs this one true God sent various messengers/manifestations. Supposedly, the "original" messages were consistent, but that "original" message got lost and all we have is a misinterpreted, distorted and corrupted message. So, what do Baha'is do with those distorted Scriptures? They pick and choose what they want out of them to put together "evidence" that supports their beliefs and prophet.

Is Krishna an incarnation and did he teach reincarnation? Baha'is say "no". Those are misinterpretations. With Buddha, Baha'is searched far and wide to find a reference about God in Buddhist Scriptures I doubt they believe are accurate. With Judaism, God is involved with his chosen people. He was in the garden with Adam. He sent fire down to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He led his people through the wilderness. And he sent plagues on the Egyptians to get to let his people go. With Christianity, he had a star guide the Magi to the baby Jesus. And sent an angel to tell the shepherds. He spoke from heaven saying that he was pleased with his son, Jesus. And later, he raised Jesus from the dead.

Superstitious and mythical beliefs? Embellishments added into the story? Yeah, I could agree with that. And that's kind of what Baha'is say. They have no problem denying some or all of these types of things, except for the virgin birth, which they do believe in. So, after they explain away all these things what is left? Bits and pieces of a continuous story of how one God still interacted with people but only by sending his messenger/manifestation.

And that's all they want and need from the Scriptures of the other religions. That's all they need to "prove" that their prophet is the promised return of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and anybody else that was ever promised to return.

To me, there's just too many holes in the Baha'i claims. Like where does it say in the Bible that there will be four "The Messiah's"? Where in the NT does it say Christ will return as Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Same with Buddhism, how many "Maitreya's" are supposed to come? How many Krishna's in Hinduism are supposed to come. All I've seen is that Buddha was one and then Kalki. Where does it say anything about Jesus, Muhammad or the Bab? Baha'is jump over them and claim Baha'u'llah is the promised Kalki Avatar. It's not consistent. But, we're supposed to ignore all this and let it slide? What happened to the Baha'i concept of investigation of truth? If there's issues, then we can't let them slide. If there aren't good and reasonable explanations and answers, then how can some of us be expected to believe the Baha'i interpretation?

It's the dilemma of the "one true God" being absent to all these believers. Even the Baha'i admit this God is so busy elsewhere that it can't be bothered with these "worthless rags" according to the Bible. How do children act if one parent, of many parents, are absent? The good ones will behave, and the bad ones will misbehave, but all will act as they wish. The same with religious people. If only the "one true God" would show up and set these people straight there wouldn't be all the disagreement.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's the dilemma of the "one true God" being absent to all these believers. Even the Baha'i admit this God is so busy elsewhere that it can't be bothered with these "worthless rags" according to the Bible. How do children act if one parent, of many parents, are absent? The good ones will behave, and the bad ones will misbehave, but all will act as they wish. The same with religious people. If only the "one true God" would show up and set these people straight there wouldn't be all the disagreement.

In the Bible and the NT, God was "smiting" people for disobeying him all the time. What can the Baha'is say to that? That he only "symbolically" smited them? But on top of that, in Christianity, the fear of burning in hell is added for the person that does wrong and/or disbelieves.

I think TB might agree with this... that those stories are only fiction. But, to me, because they are written and taught to the people as being true, then what is their purpose? It seems like it is to get people to fear this invisible God, that sees all and knows all, and to obey him or else.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? Mental disorders aren't a real phenomenon?

F1fan said: Nonsense, what you are other believers describe is clearly a mental disorder if it is all the same God.
What I and other believers describe is not a mental disorder. If it was, it would be in the DSM-5-TR.

So, nobody who you were claiming has a mental disorder had a mental disorder.

Different makes and models of cars aren't the same car. There are different Gods in human history, they aren't the same. Even the versions of God that Christians took from Jews was vastly different, unrecognizable. If all these diverse religions were referring to the same God there would be remarkable similarities. There isn't. It's not just the concepts of the Gods, it is what the Gods demand of humans that define God, and that is not in any way consistent. Look at how far different Universalist Christians are from far right Evangelicals. Hearing what God demands from these two divided camps would not leave a person thinking they are the same religion and God. So how do you account for this if the God actually exists? Human error? Or many, mnay different Gods?

The way I account for it is that people believe in different religions that depict God differently, and within these religions there are many sects that believe differently about God, so we have Universalist Christians and Evangelical Christians. They are both reading the same Bible but they interpret it differently. As long as humans have a mind they are going to think differently from each other since no two minds are alike.

Why wouldn't people believe differently about God if God exists? How would it be possible for everyone to believe the same about God, given we all have free will to choose our beliefs?

That's the most basic and rough core conceptually. But when you get into the specifics this "one God" is very different.

God is not different, only what people believe about God is different. God is what God is and what people believe does not determine what God is.

Sure, you belong to one religion, and there isn't only ONE religion. Other religions believe in s different version of God than you.

So what? That does not change what God actually is.

For example you don't think God interacts directly with people, but all other religions of your God does. Maybe God doesn't like Baha'i peope as much as other religions. The "one true God" interacts with Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, but not Baha'i. Only Baha'i get the brush off from the "one true God". How does that make you feel?

Yeah, the "one true God" wants nothing to do with you, he sends a messenger. But He does interact with Jews and Muslims.

Christians, Muslims, or Mormons only 'believe' that God interacts with them, but that does not mean that God actually interacts with them.
I do not believe God interacts with anyone except through Messengers. You are free to believe whatever you want to about that.

Do you understand that beliefs do not determine reality? There is only one reality and that does not change because people hold different beliefs about it. It is what it is.

 

[Trailblazer]

If only the "one true God" would show up and set these people straight there wouldn't be all the disagreement.

If the God showed up on earth every created thing would be reduced to utter nothingness and since there would not be any people left, the disagreement would cease to matter.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72​

That's one reason that God never shows up except in the Person of the Messengers. God manifested Himself in Baha'u'llah and set everyone straight. It is not God's fault that more people have not recognized Baha'u'llah yet, so people are still confused.

 

[CG Didymus]

If only the "one true God" would show up and set these people straight there wouldn't be all the disagreement.

That's one of the problems... Baha'is believe he has sent his manifestations to set things straight, but they didn't. Apparently, one of the problems is none of them could write until the Baha'i prophets. So, all we have is secondhand versions of the message... and they are all different.

But this thing about if God showed up everyone would get burned. What is he made of? And if he's omnipresent, then where isn't he? Is there someplace where God isn't? That, even though he is spirit, that spirit has boundaries? But then if he is everywhere, then he's already here. Or... people are just making up this invisible, omni-everything creator God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's one of the problems... Baha'is believe he has sent his manifestations to set things straight, but they didn't. Apparently, one of the problems is none of them could write until the Baha'i prophets. So, all we have is secondhand versions of the message... and they are all different.

Baha'u'llah set things straight but the previous Manifestations of God did not set things straight since people were not yet able to hear what Baha'u'llah revealed in this age.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

But this thing about if God showed up everyone would get burned. What is he made of? And if he's omnipresent, then where isn't he? Is there someplace where God isn't? That, even though he is spirit, that spirit has boundaries? But then if he is everywhere, then he's already here. Or... people are just making up this invisible, omni-everything creator God.

I think God's Spirit is omnipresent, but if the entire Essence of God showed up all created things would be reduced to utter nothingness.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72​

 

[F1fan]

Baha'u'llah set things straight but the previous Manifestations of God did not set things straight since people were not yet able to hear what Baha'u'llah revealed in this age.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Gee whiz, didn't God know there was going to be such screwups? That doesn't suggest to me that this "one true God" is very competent. If that's the case can we even trust what baha'u'llah claims came from God? All these problems you gloss over suggest serious problems with this God, and the messengers. And Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. don't agree with you, so why can't God fix his mistakes and set all these followers straight? It's a catastrophe IF you are correct in your beliefs and claims.

I think God's Spirit is omnipresent, but if the entire Essence of God showed up all created things would be reduced to utter nothingness.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72​

Not very helpful, unless God wanted followers more confused.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gee whiz, didn't God know there was going to be such screwups? That doesn't suggest to me that this "one true God" is very competent. If that's the case can we even trust what baha'u'llah claims came from God? All these problems you gloss over suggest serious problems with this God, and the messengers. And Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. don't agree with you, so why can't God fix his mistakes and set all these followers straight? It's a catastrophe IF you are correct in your beliefs and claims.

What problems? There are no problems.
Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. don't agree with me, but it is their own responsibility to discover what is actually true.
God already set them straight when He sent Baha'u'llah to set them straight. After that the ball was out of God's court.

God did not make any mistakes because God is infallible. Everything has gone according to God's Plans, and God has revealed everything people need to sort out the confusion, but if people do not recognize Baha'u'llah and read what He wrote that is not God's fault.

It is not really a catastrophe since people an retain their own beliefs until they wake up and smell the coffee.

Not very helpful, unless God wanted followers more confused.

What would not be very helpful is if God showed up on earth and the brilliance of His Light destroyed all of creation.

 

[F1fan]

What problems? There are no problems.

Yeah, 3000 years of peace and getting along with each other.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, etc. don't agree with me, but it is their own responsibility to discover what is actually true.

Haha, you tell them that as if you know what's "actually true". I've seen your interactions with other believers, but you all know your real adversary are critical thinkers.

God already set them straight when He sent Baha'u'llah to set them straight. After that the ball was out of God's court.

Then why don't you tell them that like you do critical thinkers? They are your best chance for conversion since they are already believers in some sort of God, just not what you think God is.

And how do you feel that they ignore you? They reject your messenger, and your beliefs.

God did not make any mistakes because God is infallible.

Always blaming the humans, that God created. Seems God should have done better at creating humans, eh?

Then why need a Baha'u'llah at all? Why need a Quran? Why need a New Testament? Until your messenger's text none of them said the "previous manifestations" were off, as you wrote

Baha'u'llah set things straight but the previous Manifestations of God did not set things straight since people were not yet able to hear what Baha'u'llah revealed in this age.​

Everything has gone according to God's Plans, and God has revealed everything people need to sort out the confusion, but if people do not recognize Baha'u'llah and read what He wrote that is not God's fault.

Including world wars, eh? Nice plan. Why did God make people so confused if Baha'u'llah is so clear? Could it be his bigotry?

It is not really a catastrophe since people an retain their own beliefs until they wake up and smell the coffee.

Because you have it all fugured out, as if a god yourself, eh? Is Baha'i's being arrogant part of God's plan?

What would not be very helpful is if God showed up on earth and the brilliance of His Light destroyed all of creation.

So God is powerless to appear in any appropriate form? Weak God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, 3000 years of peace and getting along with each other.

Sorry, that was not in God's Plans, but since God has perfect foreknowledge God knew it would all work out in the future.
All of history was leading up to this new Day of God, when everything in the Bible would be fulfilled.

Haha, you tell them that as if you know what's "actually true". I've seen your interactions with other believers, but you all know your real adversary are critical thinkers.

I said it is their own responsibility to discover what is actually true. It is not my responsibility to convince them it is true.
I have no adversaries since I am not in a contest or a dispute.

Then why don't you tell them that like you do critical thinkers? They are your best chance for conversion since they are already believers in some sort of God, just not what you think God is.

I do tell them when they ask or when it comes up in a related conversation, but I am not trying to convert anyone.
I talk to atheists more than believers because they talk to me more tan believers do, it's that simple.

Also, those believers already believe in God and have a religion so they are not in as much need as atheists.
I have always talked more to atheists than believers on forums, this goes way back to 2013. They are a lot more fun to talk to.

And how do you feel that they ignore you? They reject your messenger, and your beliefs.

They are not ignoring me, they are ignoring Baha'u'llah and Baha'i beliefs. It is no skin off my nose. I am only responsible for myself.

Always blaming the humans, that God created. Seems God should have done better at creating humans, eh?

God did a good job of creating humans since He created them in His own image.

Then why need a Baha'u'llah at all? Why need a Quran? Why need a New Testament? Until your messenger's text none of them said the "previous manifestations" were off, as you wrote

Baha'u'llah set things straight but the previous Manifestations of God did not set things straight since people were not yet able to hear what Baha'u'llah revealed in this age.​

They were not 'off' before Baha'u'llah came since it was not time for them to understand that all religions are one and all Messengers come from the one true God, not until this new age. Everything was going as it was supposed to go, according to God's Plan, which unfolds in stages over the course of time. They are off now because the new press release has gone out but they are still reading old newspapers rather than the latest Revelation from God.

Including world wars, eh? Nice plan. Why did God make people so confused if Baha'u'llah is so clear? Could it be his bigotry?

Those world wars were caused by humans and they happened because the kings and rulers rejected Baha'u'llah.
God did not 'make' people any way, they made themselves that way. If you want to call yourself a critical thinker you are going to have to do better than that.

The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah was very clear. Read it sometime and you will see.
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

Because you have it all fugured out, as if a god yourself, eh? Is Baha'i's being arrogant part of God's plan?

No, God's Plan was to have a few believers who would recognize and follow Baha'u'llah. There is nothing arrogant about that.

So God is powerless to appear in any appropriate form? Weak God.

God did appear in the appropriate form, in the Person of the Messenger.