A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[F1fan]

It is not a fact that a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering.

There's no fact about any God, so irrelevant. But since you enjoy complaining about how hard your life is it doesn;t suggest you would prefer something better. And that something better is what I'm talking about. Unless you just like being miserable and enjoy complaining about your misery then why would you deny that a helpful God would make our lives LESS miserable?

It is only an ego projection, what you believe God would do if God was helpful.

If there is any projection going on it's you. And typical.

You have no way of knowing what a 'helpful God' would do. All you have is a personal opinion.

That all you have tyoo. You don't have any facts, no one does. It's all guesswork about Gods. I am honest about this, and I'm using the beliefs of others to make my points.

In my personal opinion a helpful God sends messengers so people can ameliorate suffering using their teachings.

What a shock, it's what you already believe. Let's note the messengers don't really do anything except write words. The work is still on you believers, and if you don't solve your own problems they don't get solved. God or not, you are on your own. The messengers aren't making much of a difference in the world. And where the actual problems are the messengers offer nothing. If messengers were actually helpful they would have advice on making the putins and Trumps of the world reasonable. They don't.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Faith should be abanded since it is little more than wishful thinking. It solves nothing, and can make a person's problems worse because instead of thinking realistic solutions the faithful is praying for a miracle..

On the contrary, it solves everything.
Losing one's faith results in the loss of everything that matters.
eg. the blessing of family, and the life hereafter

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Faith should be abandoned since it is little more than wishful thinking. It solves nothing, and can make a person's problems worse because instead of thinking realistic solutions the faithful is praying for a miracle.

As a former devout Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I wholeheartedly agree that faith in God is a complete waste of time. In my opinion, I'm far better off in life without believing in or having faith in him. I know now that I don't need God in my life to feel peace and be content with life. I can say with complete confidence that faith and belief in God serve no purpose whatsoever in my life and that I wasted the majority of my life believing in God and being a devout Christian. I believe that the sooner a person learns not to rely on God and to think independently, the better off they will be in life. To be honest, there are moments when I think that the world would be a much better place if no one believed in God and followed the Abrahamic religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's no fact about any God, so irrelevant. But since you enjoy complaining about how hard your life is it doesn;t suggest you would prefer something better. And that something better is what I'm talking about. Unless you just like being miserable and enjoy complaining about your misery then why would you deny that a helpful God would make our lives LESS miserable?

I do not expect God to make my life any less miserable, that is my responsibility. However, there is a difference between being miserable and being somewhat sad. If you lost a spouse of 37 years maybe you'd understand. I am dealing with the situation as best I can as I pray for assistance.

Let's note the messengers don't really do anything except write words. The work is still on you believers, and if you don't solve your own problems they don't get solved. God or not, you are on your own.

That's true, we are on our own, but we can be assisted by God if God offers that assistance.

 

[F1fan]

On the contrary, it solves everything.

This is what Abrahamics seem to believe, also without evidence. The Abrahamics that no longer believe this are also no longer Abrahamics. @Sgt. Pepper explains this in excellent detail.

Go ahed and explain and demonstrate how your idea of God solves anything, and use facts and reason. I predict you will avoid this question.

Losing one's faith results in the loss of everything that matters.

No it doesn't, as @Sgt. Pepper explains, along with other reformed believers. I suspect you write this to convince yourself, because you should know by now critical thinkers require evidence and reasoning, not simple denials.

eg. the blessing of family, and the life hereafter

Atheists have families, and there is no evidence of any afterlife.

 

[Misunderstood]

Ironically, the Baha'is believe that verse about the "prince of this world" is their prophet.

Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine. – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.​

​

I don't think they'll agree with those verses that says Satan is the Prince of this world.

Thank you, I did not know that. Like they say you learn something new everyday!

I used the WOW furbal, because they do not have the informative one anymore. Thought it fit the best with what is available.

 

[F1fan]

I do not expect God to make my life any less miserable, that is my responsibility.

Then you have learned you have no use or need for a useless God. Yet you believe.... why? Scared of the alternative?

However, there is a difference between being miserable and being somewhat sad. If you lost a spouse of 37 years maybe you'd understand. I am dealing with the situation as best I can as I pray for assistance.

Just as God caused. Do your messengers tell you how to cope? If not, then how useful are they? Baha'i messengers are less useful than friends and members of RF.

That's true, we are on our own, but we can be assisted by God if God offers that assistance.

But you acknowledge God isn't a fact, so you can't be very secure in thinking you can rely on whatever God you think exists. There's always that annoying itch that God is imaginary, and you really are on your own. It's smarter to rely on firends and family.

 

[Misunderstood]

As a Baha'i, I do not believe that there is an actual entity called Satan. I believe that Satan signifies the natural inclinations of man's lower nature.

“…… according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.” Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 286-287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.“ Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

As a Baha'i, I believe that God is the Ruler of this world.

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17

As a Baha'i, I believe that the "prince of this world" is Baha'u'llah, not Satan.

"Thou didst ask as to chapter 14, verse 30 of the Gospel of John, where the Lord Christ saith, ’Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.’ The Prince of this world is the Blessed Beauty [Baha’u’llah]; and ’hath nothing in Me’ signifieth: after Me all will draw grace from Me, but He is independent of Me, and will draw no grace from Me. That is, He is rich beyond any grace of Mine." – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 171.

Since you do not believe in an adversary of God in control of the world then that statement will not help you in your discussion with your internet friend. However, you did say he was Christian, so maybe it could help him.

Most sects of the Jewish faith also do not believe there is a Satan. In some ways I think that is good. Sin is our choice, the devil may try to entice us, but it is still our choice. Adam and Eve were told they would surly die if they ate of the fruit, but felt they knew better. So whether there is a Satan or just our own sinful nature, or whatever else you want to call it, they disobeyed God. But now it is always someone elses fault if we make a bad choice, it is never our own fault anymore.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you have learned you have no use or need for a useless God. Yet you believe.... why? Scared of the alternative?

I don't believe in God in order to get something for myself, nothing could be more selfish.
I have told you innumerable times that I believe in God because God exists and I know God exists because of the evidence.

Just as God caused. Do your messengers tell you how to cope? If not, then how useful are they? Baha'i messengers are less useful than friends and members of RF.

God did not cause anything. In the scriptures are embedded teachings that help people cope but people also help people cope. I attend a GriefShare group at a church and get a lot of support from the Christians. Many people on RF are also helpful.

But you acknowledge God isn't a fact, so you can't be very secure in thinking you can rely on whatever God you think exists. There's always that annoying itch that God is imaginary, and you really are on your own. It's smarter to rely on friends and family.

I am very secure in thinking I can rely upon God since I know God exists. There is no annoying itch that God might me imaginary, but I am on my own ,and I rely mostly upon myself and a few friends, since I have no family left.

 

[F1fan]

I don't believe in God in order to get something for myself, nothing could be more selfish.
I have told you innumerable times that I believe in God because God exists and I know God exists because of the evidence.

Confused language here. We only believe when we are uncertain. You admit you believe in God, but then claim you KNOW God exists. That's a contradiction. But it's false, there is no knowledge that any gods exist, so you are likely saying you "know" God exists as an excuse. You offer no actual reason. So what's the actual reason?

If you keep insisting a God exists then you had better show us all. Otherwise you're only fooling yourself, because it's not critical thinkers being fooled.

God did not cause anything.

Gods have to exist to do anything. You haven't demonstrated any Gods exist.

In the scriptures are embedded teachings that help people cope but people also help people cope. I attend a GriefShare group at a church and get a lot of support from the Christians. Many people on RF are also helpful.

Great, writings aren't gods. We all write. Sometimes it helps people.

I am very secure in thinking I can rely upon God since I know God exists. There is no annoying itch that God might me imaginary, but I am on my own ,and I rely mostly upon myself and a few friends, since I have no family left.

This all sounds like a bill of goods you're trying to convince yourself is true.

 

[We Never Know]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

Christians become non-believers
Non-believers become christians
Boys become girls
Girls become boys

We live in a crazy world lol

 

[blü 2]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

The world behaves exactly as if God / gods existed only as a category of ideas in individual human brains. God never appears, never says, never does, is not described by real qualities (species, sex, height, distinguishing features, photo in Wikipedia), just by imaginary qualities (omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, eternal, infinite &c &c).

The morality of the Abrahamic God (in all his different versions) is appalling by my standards. That includes the vice mentioned above of never doing, never acting when the little kid is drowning in the swimming pool, never protecting the innocent from the road toll, letting droughts and tsunamis happen and ever so much more.

But I have no objection to make if people choose to believe, if it helps them and lets them be better people. (It follows that I find the Churches of Money offensive).

 

[Trailblazer]

We only believe when we are uncertain. You admit you believe in God, but then claim you KNOW God exists. That's a contradiction.

That is all semantics. I know that what I believe is true.

But it's false, there is no knowledge that any gods exist, so you are likely saying you "know" God exists as an excuse. You offer no actual reason. So what's the actual reason?

I have told you the reason that I know God exists innumerable times, because of the evidence. The evidence is the Messengers of God.

If you keep insisting a God exists then you had better show us all. Otherwise you're only fooling yourself, because it's not critical thinkers being fooled.

I am not insisting on anything. I am only saying what I believe and know to be true. It is personal.
Nobody can 'show' that God exists. Only God could show that He exists, if He chose to.

Gods have to exist to do anything. You haven't demonstrated any Gods exist.

And I never will demonstrate that since God is not demonstrable.

This all sounds like a bill of goods you're trying to convince yourself is true.

I don't have to convince myself of what I already know is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

The world behaves exactly as if God / gods existed only as a category of ideas in individual human brains. God never appears, never says, never does, is not described by real qualities (species, sex, height, distinguishing features, photo in Wikipedia), just by imaginary qualities (omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, eternal, infinite &c &c).

There is no reason to think that God would appear, say, or do anything, if God existed.
God has no species, sex, height, or distinguishing features, since God is not a human being.

The morality of the Abrahamic God (in all his different versions) is appalling by my standards. That includes the vice mentioned above of never doing, never acting when the little kid is drowning in the swimming pool, never protecting the innocent from the road toll, letting droughts and tsunamis happen and ever so much more.

There is no reason to think that God would act when the little kid is drowning in the swimming pool, protect the innocent from the road toll, or prevent droughts and tsunamis from happening because these are human responsibilities.

 

[PearlSeeker]

It is irrelevant for us. God is loving is only a belief that some people need to 'feel loved' by God. It is egocentric.

It's not egocentric. Love is like communication. It is expressed and it is received. But as you said God's love is different so we can't have a loving relationship. And we can't have it as a model for our love. Just imagine a "loving" couple:

A: Why don't you... (insert: take me to a date/bring me flowers/massage my feet/say something nice to me/do any housework etc.)?​

B: Just believe I love you.​

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not egocentric. Love is like communication. It is expressed and it is received. But as you said God's love is different so we can't have a loving relationship. And we can't have it as a model for our love. Just imagine a "loving" couple:

A: Why don't you... (insert: take me to a date/bring me flowers/massage my feet/say something nice to me/do any housework etc.)?​

B: Just believe I love you.​

No, a need to feel loved by God is not egocentric. It is just a need some people have, like the need for romantic love from a partner.
Not all people have a need for God's love and not all people have a need for romantic love from a partner. People have different needs.

 

[joelr]

Because I know God exists because of the evidence.

What evidence do you find convincing? I know of no evidence? Are you talking about claims people made and wrote them down?

 

[joelr]

It is not a fact that a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering. It is only an ego projection, what you believe God would do if God was helpful.

You have no way of knowing what a 'helpful God' would do. All you have is a personal opinion.
In my personal opinion a helpful God sends messengers so people can ameliorate suffering using their teachings.

Your personal opinion is also an "ego projection" then.

Also you happen to believe in a religion that tells you messengers are real. So this isn't an opinion at all, it's just a cognitive bias that you have to think. If you didn't think it then you could not believe the religion.
But you don't have evidence, just a claim. I have looked for advanced writing, philosophy, any correct science, future science, any actual prediction, it doesn't exist in those writings.
Everyone is allowed to have low standards of evidence if they choose but this is really bad.

 

[PureX]

Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.

Why do you assume that all creation should serve our comfort?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.

Why do you assume that the universe is rational and must conform with your idea of that?