A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[Trailblazer]

There are many types of love and ways to express/receive love but this doesn't mean that love is not an universal need. In early period it's even critical for survival.

It might be a psychological need but it is not the same as the physical need for food, water, sleep, and air to breathe, since nobody is going to die if they don't have love. They might suffer psychologically, but they won't die. I can give you an example of a man I met on a dating site who went crazy and I think it is because he has had no contact with people for over 20 years, since he lives in the desert all by himself and doesn't talk to anyone, except every two weeks or so when he comes into town for supplies and to the library to send and check e-mails.

You studied psychology, right? Are you familiar with the Harlow experiment and the Frederick experiment?

How Harry Harlow's Research on Love Shaped How We Treat Children Today

In his controversial research, Harry Harlow demonstrated the powerful effects of love. Learn about his monkey mother experiment and the impact it had on psychology.

www.verywellmind.com

Since I was raised in a family where children got little love and affection perhaps that is why I don't have much of a need for it. Of course, it can also go the opposite way because some people who are raised in such families have excessive needs for love and affection. I think that man I mentioned above came from such a family, from what he told me. Now he wants me to make up for the love and affection he never got from his parents but I have no interest in him because he is not only crazy, he is selfish.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Your feelings, for sure.

I defer to facts, data, and science to form my understanding of how things are in the universe. Somehow you think a god is included, even though you can't explain how that is fact-based instead of being some obsolete idea that many modern folks still assume is true for personal reasons. You've admitted your belief is for personal reasons. OK, knock yourself out. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

Take #2. My God is based on faith in the end. It is not fact based. And that is a part of how the universe works. You are looking at data about the universe right now.

 

[F1fan]

Take #2. My God is based on faith in the end. It is not fact based.

Then why have you decided to believe it?

And that is a part of how the universe works.

No, it’s how YOUR mind works. My mind doesn’t work that way so you can’t generalize the universe working the way your mind does. Your beliefs are all on you.

You are looking at data about the universe right now.

A very insignificant data point. Your mind is not the universe.

 

[Koldo]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

If Stalin himself got to define what a loving Stalin does and is, he could easily say that holodomor was pure love. We do not give any credence to how Stalin describes his own actions or omissions. Why would we do any different with God?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Then why have you decided to believe it?


No, it’s how YOUR mind works. My mind doesn’t work that way so you can’t generalize the universe working the way your mind does. Your beliefs are all on you.


A very insignificant data point. Your mind is not the universe.

I said a part. You are not everything, you are not nothing, you are something and a part.
Well, I miswrote. You are looking at a datapoint right now about a part of the universe. Feel better, now?

As for how come I have faith in God, that is philosophy and not theology.
Basically I though it over and decided for me as me, that I acted as if the objective universe in itself, is fair, real, orderly and knowledge. But those 4 are cases of ontological idealism and at least 2 of them are sort of person like and all 4 are non-physical, so I have faith in a God. I trust without evidence, truth, proof the the objective universe in itself to be something in a non-physical sense.

I don't have faith in souls, Heaven, Hell or any other sort of standard theistic version.
In practice I am left-leaning, progressive, secular and a believer in human rights and democracy.

 

[F1fan]

I said a part. You are not everything, you are not nothing, you are something and a part.
Well, I miswrote. You are looking at a datapoint right now about a part of the universe. Feel better, now?

I never felt bad.

As for how come I have faith in God, that is philosophy and not theology.

Define it anyway you want, but theology refers to god.

Basically I though it over and decided for me as me, that I acted as if the objective universe in itself, is fair, real, orderly and knowledge. But those 4 are cases of ontological idealism and at least 2 of them are sort of person like and all 4 are non-physical, so I have faith in a God. I trust without evidence, truth, proof the the objective universe in itself to be something in a non-physical sense.

In the end you still use faith, and that means an unreliable conclusion.

I don't have faith in souls, Heaven, Hell or any other sort of standard theistic version.

Why use faith at all? Others use faith to justify belief in your list above, so does it matter what you do or don't use faith for? It's unreliable no matter how it's used.

In practice I am left-leaning, progressive, secular and a believer in human rights and democracy.

OK. And?

 

[viole]

Interesting post, Trailblazer! Thanks for sharing.

Even with this world being so messed up as it is, all of us have moments we enjoy, wouldn’t you agree? I’m sure you have pleasant memories of times you enjoyed with your husband (or somebody else like a close friend)…or maybe lovely places you’ve visited.

But isn’t it true that we only live 70 to 80 years? If we have good health, maybe longer. But if we have bad health, considerably less.

Really, though, isn’t +/- 80 years just a drop in the bucket compared with what’s ahead of us, i.e., eternity? That’s the prospect before us! John 17:3.

I want to express my condolences for the loss of your husband, but I believe that he too will have the opportunity to enjoy “the gift” of everlasting life in perfect health! John 5:28,29; Romans 6:23; Isaiah 33:24.

May I ask why He did not create us directly into everlasting life in perfect health, instead of making things that are indistinguishable from a state of affairs in which He does not exist?

ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

May I ask why He did not create us directly into everlasting life in perfect health..

You may ask, but it doesn't change the fact that we are mortal.
Would you really want to live forever, here in your mortal body,
where limbs might get cut off, or your internal organs get damaged beyond repair?

 

[joelr]

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

1) First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.


Only by about 10 years, Mormonism is close. So yeah, this isn't evidence. Every religion is a person claiming a deity is speaking to them. Except they had proof in all sorts of supernatural events, which are of course only in stories and not real. This man has zero of those and very average scripture. How you could think this wasn't anything other than evidence of a person who writes a lot and read the Bible, Quran and Hindu scriptures I have no idea?

2)Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies,


That's weird because all of those prophecies play out with a huge cosmic battle and everyone resurrecting and a pardise on Earth.
This guy just botched a bunch of science facts and said everyone should get along.


3) More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character),

A writer. Clearly read the Quran/Bible. Radically changing theology to allow him to show no miracles, supernatural events. Not philosophically minded at all. Please, why would this be evidence?

4)His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history)


Incorrect science. No philosophy. Endless praise language. Nothing here is even outstanding? Please, like to a writing that sounds like only a God could have dictated.

5)Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies

But he didn't. Revelation did not happen. The Mt Carmel prophecy was a literal facade, a scam. That prophecy says the Earth will ALL be a paradise, like a garden of Eden. They built a garden on a hill named Mt Carmel and announced the prophecy was fulfilled. Seriously, that was the prophecy coming true.
No prophecies other came true. That is a scam.

6)Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass

he didn't. He predicted a war when the political climate was that a war was inevitable.

7)Prophecy 2: The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.

Except he didn't say that when he was talking about Germany, he warned a universal war was imminent and everyone was worried about this.
After their defeat people saw the unrest and political issues brewing and then predicted another war.


8)40 THE CHALLENGE OF BAHA'U'LLAH

The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress. - The industrial revolution was happening, this isn't a prophecy?


The development of nuclear weapons. - no he didn't say that. He made a comment - "Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal."
Plutonium and Uranium are not hidden in the Earth, the isotope used in bombs is made. They do not change the atmosphere.


The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
nope. We have been over this. The alchemists dream was easily making gold. This has not happened. Alchemy was at th etime thought to be a real thing, Newton worked on it and it was thought to be the next big thing. He isn't making prophecies, he's guessing the future based on current predictions and available information.



Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
luckily no dire-peril because that hasn't happened.


. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
That discovery never happened. The Hydrogen in the universe is still hydrogen. Supernovas are not "evolution". A God might actually be able to say higher elements are created in supernova and similar explosions.


The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.

No, not really.


Space travel.

Yes, space travel. A God could say "NASA", "rockets", "man on moon". A man speculating would say space travel.


The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.

Cancer is internal. This was a medical idea in the 1800's, he is clearly riffing off medical speculation of the time.


Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.

This is a big fail, REALLY BIG. We ended up finding dozens of intermediate Hominid species. Heidelbergensis is out direct ancestor.


The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.

It's not redefined as an abstract reality. However a God messenger could have said a few words and blown everyone away in the future - special relativity, general relativity, wave particle duality, antimatter, electrons orbit protons/neutrons, protons are made of quarks, QFT, quantum electrodynamics, and so much more


The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

no they work fine, waves, fields, feynman diagrams, they all help understand the physical world.

Then the book goes on to try and rationalize why these are actually prophetic statements. They are not. This is not a prophet and prophets are not real.

 

[joelr]

It is a personal opinion that comes from my religious teachings, not from my ego, so it is not an ego projection.

But the comment you were speaking to was about a God who helps suffering, which is also a religious teaching.

It is not a cognitive bias, it is a religious belief. I 'believe' that messengers are real.

Yes because you use cognitive bias to ignore terrible evidence so you can believe messengers are real.

There are claims and then there is the evidence that support those claims, as delineated in the post I just sent to you above #79.

All complete fraud. Not one single claim is evidence of anything except a man making claims.

What is advanced writing is only a matter of personal opinion.

No, literature, writing analysis, philosophical content, and many more elements can be analyzed. You cannot just string a bunch of praises for a God together, run on like that for pages and claim it's "subjectively advanced". Sure, you can submit a collection of his philosophy to Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy the Stanford Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It probably will not be accepted.

Religion is not philosophy or science, so you won't find those in scriptures.

That is a telling goalpost move. Now last I checked, one of the books that provides "proof" of Bahai claims says that one knows a messenger by his advancement of philosophy, and his advancement in scientific concepts.

Further, there are several sections in Bahai scripture devoted to science and giving predictions of what future science will provide. So both of those claims are incorrect.

However, you will find predictions that came true, because that is one thing that prophets do, make accurate predictions.

One list I dealt with in my last post. All ridiculous claims.
Another list are predictions that were already apparent and he jumped on the bandwagon. For example - " America's violent racial struggles."
Yeah, it's takes a God to tell you black Americans were beginning to rise up and resist by late 1800s'????????

or -
"The persecution of Jews on the European continent"

something happening all throughout history? Of course modern volumes add in (the Nazi ....) to make it look like he was being specific


"The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate."

By 11807 the Ottoman Empire was heavily declining and losing a war.

These are ridiculous and obvious predictions that CNN would be saying were they around then? We also don't know the editing process of the writings? Are there other even worse predictions they left out?
Nothing here comes even close to suggesting any form of ESP or knowledge of the future. As far as a God? That is not in the question.
If prophecy was the aim of a God, it would do prophecy.
Not vague political statements that were obvious truths.


"The breakup of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople."


Ok there it is. Economic problems started in the 16th century, civil unrest, by the early 1800s everything was falling apart, civil war, plague, famine,

" A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority."

The Vatican is still very powerful. These are just predictions from a man with knowledge of the world at the time. There were secular groups around that time and Europe was becoming secular so he saw this.

 

[F1fan]

1) First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.


Only by about 10 years, Mormonism is close. So yeah, this isn't evidence. Every religion is a person claiming a deity is speaking to them. Except they had proof in all sorts of supernatural events, which are of course only in stories and not real. This man has zero of those and very average scripture. How you could think this wasn't anything other than evidence of a person who writes a lot and read the Bible, Quran and Hindu scriptures I have no idea?

And what makes a new religion automatically valid and improved? To my mind the anti-gay bigotry is evidence that it isn't in the running as a revelation. It's pissing in the punch bowl.

On top of that there is the Urantia religion. that book was written in the erly 1950's, I think. there is a small, global community of these people that I think numbers artound 100,000 people. I learned about it from my sister who lived in Boulder, CO. She picked it up from her boyfriend who worked at Celestial Seasonings (remembeer CS coughdrops? That was Steve's idea) and the founder, Mo Seagal, were into Urantia. I attended readings and read some of the 2000+ page book myself. Lots of stuff about Jesus and multi-colored aliens from different worlds. OK. I'm not convinced, but these folks are devout, but very liberal and progressive. It offers a much better message than Baha'i. Anyway, it's newer, so Baha'u'llah was wrong, and probably just tooting his own horn, as any franchise would do.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's weird because all of those prophecies play out with a huge cosmic battle and everyone resurrecting and a paradise on Earth.

There is no cosmic battle, except when people interpret scripture literally when it was intended to be interpreted figuratively.
Resurrecting to spiritual life, not physical life. Physical bodies do not come out of their graves once they have been buried and decomposed.
There will be paradise on earth but that doesn't happen overnight, it takes time. Humans don't change fast, history demonstrates that.
There is no magic wand that the return of Christ waves and then everything changes instantly. That is a Christian fantasy.

The Great Resurrection ​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.​

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.​

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

 

[Trailblazer]

Not one single claim is evidence of anything except a man making claims.

Of course a claim is not evidence. I never said a claim is evidence. Evidence is what supports a claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

That prophecy says the Earth will ALL be a paradise, like a garden of Eden.

Only when misinterpreted and taken literally does any prophecy say that there will be a garden of Eden on earth....
There was never a garden of Eden in the first place. Those Bible verses are symbolic, not literal. Check your sources.
Only Christians BELIEVE there was an actual garden of Eden and want a return to Eden, which would not be progression, it would be retrogression.

The story of the Garden of Eden is a theological use of mythological themes to explain human progression from a state of innocence and bliss to the present human condition of knowledge of sin, misery, and death. According to the Genesis account (2:4–3:24), God created Adam from the dust of the ground and then planted the Garden of Eden with the “tree of life” and the forbidden “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” at its centre. God tasked Adam with tending the garden and naming the animals therein and gave him the single command to not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Lacking a helper for his work, Adam was put into a deep sleep while God took from him a rib and created a companion, Eve. The two were persons of innocence and lived unashamedly without clothes as husband and wife. However, an evil serpent in the garden deceived Eve, who ate of the prohibited fruit and gave some to Adam. With newly opened eyes, they recognized their nakedness and donned fig leaves as garments. Immediately God saw their transgression and proclaimed their punishments—for the woman, pain in childbirth and subordination to man and, for the man, relegation to an accursed ground with which he must toil and sweat for his subsistence. God clothed them with animal skins and then cast them out of the paradise garden, posting an angel armed with a sword of fire there to prevent their return.​

​

Garden of Eden | Story, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

Garden of Eden, in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) book of Genesis, biblical earthly paradise inhabited by the first created man and woman, Adam and Eve, prior to their expulsion for disobeying the commandments of God.

www.britannica.com

 

[CG Didymus]

But he didn't. Revelation did not happen. The Mt Carmel prophecy was a literal facade, a scam. That prophecy says the Earth will ALL be a paradise, like a garden of Eden. They built a garden on a hill named Mt Carmel and announced the prophecy was fulfilled. Seriously, that was the prophecy coming true.
No prophecies other came true. That is a scam.

It's easy for Baha'is to fulfill Bible prophecies when they make up a symbolic meaning and don't have to take it literally. My favorite is still how they take the "Three Woes" in Revelation and make them Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah... Very creative, but how do the say it fits into the context?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

May I ask why He did not create us directly into everlasting life in perfect health

He did. Our first parents, Adam & Eve, were created perfect. Perfect bodies, perfect minds. (How do we know they were perfect? Because they and their offspring from the next few generations, had such long lifespans.) They were to pass on their perfect traits to all their descendants. As their offspring, we were to inherit a perfect genome from them.

But to stay perfect, they needed to keep listening to & follow the guidelines of their Creator. They didn’t, so they lost their perfection. They could no longer pass perfection on to us. Romans 5:12

That’s why Jehovah sent Jesus to earth, as a human. Jesus’ sacrifice, as a perfect man, matched what Adam lost for us: perfect human life.

So, living in perfection is coming for the human race.

…instead of making things that are indistinguishable from a state of affairs in which He does not exist?

I’m afraid I don’t understand clearly, sorry.
Are you asking why it seems that there is no evidence that God exists?
What do you mean by “making things that are indistinguishable”?

 

[F1fan]

He did. Our first parents, Adam & Eve, were created perfect.

That's what the myth says. There is no evidence that suggests the story describes actual people and real events.

Perfect bodies, perfect minds. (How do we know they were perfect? Because they and their offspring from the next few generations, had such long lifespans.) They were to pass on their perfect traits to all their descendants. As their offspring, we were to inherit a perfect genome from them.

None of this is factual.

But to stay perfect, they needed to keep listening to & follow the guidelines of their Creator. They didn’t, so they lost their perfection. They could no longer pass perfection on to us. Romans 5:12

Well then, so much for "perfect minds". A perfect mind doesn't get tempted. So your comment here already has inconsistencies. But welcome to the Bible.

That’s why Jehovah sent Jesus to earth, as a human. Jesus’ sacrifice, as a perfect man, matched what Adam lost for us: perfect human life.

What a savage and Rube Goldberg solution. God wasn't the best creator, always making mistakes to fix. Kind of like how Microsoft had to keep making patches for their flawed Windows 95 platform. But at least Windows solved the problems, unlike salvation.

So, living in perfection is coming for the human race.

When? Will God have to create another perfect child and have it killed so a fix will finally work? Maybe a girl this time. Maybe a more horible death.

 

[Tiberius]

I agree, suffering was intended by God...

Then God seems to be a jerk.

...as is all things.

If that's the case, then God can't pass judgement on us, as we are only doing what God intends for us to do.

 

[blü 2]

Well, this is what it is all about.
How much patience have we got?
What will happen to our faith, if we suffer due to our love for G-d?

One thing is for sure .. we will eventually die, and then .. "This is your life".

Sure, death is written into the contract. But to say there's some (entirely unexplained) manner in which the human self, with its emotions, upbringing, nature and memories, can survive the irreversible cessation of the body's life support functions is evidenced by nothing at all.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Then God seems to be a jerk.

I don’t think so

If that's the case, then God can't pass judgement on us, as we are only doing what God intends for us to do.

I agree