A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[setarcos]

How is God not a jerk if suffering was designed by him? What would even count as being a jerk if not that?

Speaking from a Christian perspective concerning the Christian God....first, what do think creation -supposing it is Gods creation- is for?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't think anyone demands perfect, but is life without mosquitoes and cancer too much to ask for? Maybe I'll be struck by lightening later today for brining it up. Don't want to make the loving God look like he doesn't know what he's doing, right?

How would the absence of suffering entail a perfect existence? Would your life be meaningless without the potential of suffering? You just got me worried now.

The hurdles on the track are to strengthen your legs. What would be the point of just clicking everything into life with already strong legs?

 

[setarcos]

Yeah, that is a subjective game. You choose subjective a set of standards as perfect of a human and declare victory, because your set is objective in effect.

Are you saying that we cannot come to an objective conclusion of what a perfected human being is?
It seems to me if one is going to critique the assumptions of another - in this case "HockeyCowboys" idea of Adam and Eve's perfection - then one should already have made a conclusion of what a perfect human is.

 

[Koldo]

Speaking from a Christian perspective concerning the Christian God....first, what do think creation -supposing it is Gods creation- is for?

Can you explain the purpose of this question? I have no idea how it relates to that post. Because whatever God's intention was, assuming omnipotence, for creating the world would still make God a jerk for creating suffering.

 

[setarcos]

Does it really matter?

I think your conclusions in your post shows that it most certainly matters. For instance you've concluded that "failing" to resist temptation is not a characteristic inherent in a perfect human being. You also need to answer the question - why did God create this creation in the first place? What is its purpose?

 

[Koldo]

The hurdles on the track are to strengthen your legs. What would be the point of just clicking everything into life with already strong legs?

I have no idea why you believe that legs need suffering to get stronger.

 

[setarcos]

Can you explain the purpose of this question? I have no idea how it relates to that post. Because whatever God's intention was, assuming omnipotence, for creating the world would still make God a jerk for creating suffering.

The problem as I see it...throughout the ages, is that people keep conflating human standards with what they expect out of God.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I have no idea why you believe that legs need suffering to get stronger.

What other challenges would we overcome if not suffering for encouragement?

 

[Koldo]

The problem as I see it...throughout the ages, is that people keep conflating human standards with what they expect out of God.

The problem as I see it... is that people love to find excuses to justify the actions (and omissions) of the gods they believe in. It is so expedient that it easily becomes irresistible.

Whenever we come across something that directly contradicts our beliefs, our models, we will often try to find a way to deal with that contradiction without discarding any of our former (and dear) beliefs. No matter how far-fecthed the solution may be.

 

[Koldo]

What other challenges would we overcome if not suffering for encouragement?

Can't you truly think of anything other than suffering?

 

[setarcos]

I see these things as indication of three things we have to keep in mind.
1) People are mad at having to suffer and/or see others suffer but they can't blame God since in order to do that one has to acknowledge its existence.
2) Because of 1) people are mad at those who believe in Gods existence and so they militantly attack those beliefs and condemn those who believe as fools or worse.
3) Some people just enjoy criticizing those who believe -regardless of ethics- which because of their finite abilities cannot perfectly transmit why they believe despite not having all the answers.
Now 1 is to be expected from someone who disbelieves but 2 is unfair since it involves projection onto the believer which only holds hope for justice in an unjust world. And 3 is just despicable.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your fellow Muslim jihadists who kill innocent people are following what scripture teaches..

Rubbish .. Putin is not following scripture either.

And why assume otherwise, ancient lore that exploits the fear of death?

You may assume whatever you like, as can I.

What, all of a sudden you don't believe in an afterlife? Good for you, now get busy living without the burden of a head full of irrational religious concepts.

No thanks .. I would rather live my life with faith in G-d.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, death is written into the contract. But to say there's some (entirely unexplained) manner in which the human self, with its emotions, upbringing, nature and memories, can survive the irreversible cessation of the body's life support functions is evidenced by nothing at all.

The soul is the manner in which the human self, with its emotions, upbringing, nature and memories, can survive the irreversible cessation of the body's life support functions, and the soul is a mystery although it is not not 'entirely unexplained.'

 

[viole]

I don't think your logic here is quite fair. You must define what it is about the being we are talking about that defines its perfection. In order to do that first, what are the characteristics which define a human being? Then, what would those characteristics be like when perfected?
Once we do that we might critique why Adam and Eve failed to meet the standard of being perfect human beings.
So...what is your answer to those first two questions above? After you answer them I may be able to show where your misunderstanding the perfection of Adam and Eve....or not, but maybe.

Do you think Adam and Eve were as perfect as God? Assuming you believe God is perfect, of course.

ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

While I certainly understand the man's reasoning, I think it's fallacious. It's emotional reasoning.

I agree. It was emotional.

I don't believe in god because the evidence to believe otherwise is lacking. That's it.

I disagree. There is evidence for God.

 

[setarcos]

The problem as I see it... is that people love to find excuses to justify the actions (and omissions) of the gods they believe in.

Yes, some people do seek excuses. Those poor souls are doing so out of desperate ignorance. Some are drawn to that which is greater than themselves in search of the only way true justice can exist in reality despite their ability to communicate what that means.

It is so expedient that it easily becomes irresistible.

I don't know that its so expedient but in most cases I believe its not very pleasant. That is to have a feeling of Gods existence without having all the answers to why reality is the way it is.

Whenever we come across something that directly contradicts our beliefs, our models, we will often try to find a way to deal with that contradiction without discarding any of our former (and dear) beliefs. No matter how far-fecthed the solution may be.

Absolutely true to reality. However this is true to all reality. Even human reaction to understanding of scientific reality. This is an unfortunate result of the human condition of ignorance, and pride. Ultimately humans want to think they have arrived before they have.

 

[setarcos]

Do you think Adam and Eve were as perfect as God? Assuming you believe God is perfect, of course.

ciao

- viole

If Adam and Eve were as perfect as God wouldn't that make them God? In other words...do you think that the perfection that defines a perfect human being is the same as that that defines God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't that true of everything humans pray for? Peace, justice, equality, decency, sound government.

Yup.

Why bother to pray for ANYTHING?

That's a good question. I don't usually pray for anything in particular, I just say this prayer over and over and over again.

Remover of difficulties

Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God! All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding!

The Báb​

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Are you saying that we cannot come to an objective conclusion of what a perfected human being is?
It seems to me if one is going to critique the assumptions of another - in this case "HockeyCowboys" idea of Adam and Eve's perfection - then one should already have made a conclusion of what a perfect human is.

No, I have learned for for a perfect human is X and not Y, I just have to ask another human and get a perfect human is Y and not X. That is how these games of God is X and not Y and all the other version X, Y, Z and so on work. You will claim objectivity and get one result. Another human will claim objectivity and get another result. A third person will claim to be the perfect subjective version for understanding God and all other humans are not perfect.
I just that you are not objective, but subjective and then you will subjectively deny that you are subjective and subjectively claim you are objective and declare victory. I will then continue to be subjectively different than you and point that out.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If Adam and Eve were as perfect as God wouldn't that make them God? In other words...do you think that the perfection that defines a perfect human being is the same as that that defines God?

Yeah, that bold one is subjective unless you do it, of course.