A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[viole]

If Adam and Eve were as perfect as God wouldn't that make them God? In other words...do you think that the perfection that defines a perfect human being is the same as that that defines God?

ok, probably a perfect car is different from a perfect hair dryer. Fair enough

so, back to my initial argument. assuming that God’s claim to have created humans in His image was just a figure of speech.

don’t you think that there is a possible human being, or any not God being, that does not need any supervision in order to perform what is best for it? or that it realises, out of simple logic, that disobeying an omniscient almighty being is highly irrational?

Honestly, I have no problem to imagine such a being. And as long as such a being belongs to a possible state of affairs of the world, the label “perfect” applied to Adam and Eve does not obtain..

Ciao

- viole

 

[setarcos]

No, I have learned for for a perfect human is X and not Y, I just have to ask another human and get a perfect human is Y and not X. That is how these games of God is X and not Y and all the other version X, Y, Z and so on work. You will claim objectivity and get one result. Another human will claim objectivity and get another result. A third person will claim to be the perfect subjective version for understanding God and all other humans are not perfect.
I just that you are not objective, but subjective and then you will subjectively deny that you are subjective and subjectively claim you are objective and declare victory. I will then continue to be subjectively different than you and point that out.

You are describing the human condition. Taken to it extreme we are all self contained unique organisms projecting our subjectivity out into the nether realms of reality. However, a certain amount of realistic, identifiable, and agreeable objectivity must exist in order for this universe and us in it to function. That is the -however limited it is - framework we must meet and work within. In my humble opinion God has given us certain tools to do that with such as logic and reasoning ability.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Can't you truly think of anything other than suffering?

No, not for life-changing accomplishments. One could be completely satisfied with their life and needn't more, so they relax and settle. Or one could feel the need for change, from suffering, and work toward that change.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You are describing the human condition. Taken to it extreme we are all self contained unique organisms projecting our subjectivity out into the nether realms of reality. However, a certain amount of realistic, identifiable, and agreeable objectivity must exist in order for this universe and us in it to function. That is the -however limited it is - framework we must meet and work within. In my humble opinion God has given us certain tools to do that with such as logic and reasoning ability.

Yeah, but you have to learn the limit of objectivity, not that is not there, but limited.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Gee whiz a truly helpful God would have created a world with less suffering, but its not like believers are dealing with facts.

What you are really saying here is, "If I were God, I would have done things differently". It's no kind of argument for anything frankly.

 

[setarcos]

Yeah, that bold one is subjective unless you do it, of course.

I believe that coming to an objective agreement based upon our subjective projections of understanding is possible.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I believe that coming to an objective agreement based upon our subjective projections of understanding is possible.

I believe differently and that we both believe, is subjective in the end. That is my point.

 

[setarcos]

Yeah, but you have to learn the limit of objectivity, not that is not there, but limited.

Sure, and if you "think" about it, even learning the limits of objectivity is a subjective activity resulting in an objective agreement otherwise language itself would be a pointless endeavor. Reality seems to show us that language is not pointless. It is useful and produces real results.

 

[Koldo]

No, not for life-changing accomplishments. One could be completely satisfied with their life and needn't more, so they relax and settle. Or one could feel the need for change, from suffering, and work toward that change.

Have you never experienced the feeling of wanting to make a impactful change in your life, not because you are suffering but rather because you want to achieve something different in your life?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sure, and if you "think" about it, even learning the limits of objectivity is a subjective activity resulting in an objective agreement otherwise language itself would be a pointless endeavor. Reality seems to show us that language is not pointless. It is useful and produces real results.

Well, if you can point to real, I will listen. And the same with useful. Otherwise you are still just subjective. But so am I when it comes to real and useful.

 

[setarcos]

I believe differently and that we both believe, is subjective in the end. That is my point.

Consider this, how do you know you believe differently unless you know what I believe? Now, if you know what I believe then that is a starting point in communicating how you believe differently which puts us on a path to agreeing objectively. Unless one cannot show logically or reasonably one beliefs failures which would merely leave those beliefs up for debate. Subjectivity does not always equate to incommunicability.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Consider this, how do you know you believe differently unless you know what I believe? Now, if you know what I believe then that is a starting point in communicating how you believe differently which puts us on a path to agreeing objectively. Unless one cannot show logically or reasonably one beliefs failures which would merely leave those beliefs up for debate. Subjectivity does not always equate to incommunicability.

Well, we will end up doing philosophy of epistemology and all the rest. But sorry, not to day.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Have you never experienced the feeling of wanting to make a impactful change in your life, not because you are suffering but rather because you want to achieve something different in your life?

Doesn't wanting more come from dissatisfaction?

 

[Koldo]

Doesn't wanting more come from dissatisfaction?

Not necessarily. But even if it were, do you count mere dissatisfaction as suffering? Because there is a huge bridge between experiencing mere dissatisfaction and experiencing massive pain. And the need for one wouldn't justify the other.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Not necessarily. But even if it were, do you count mere dissatisfaction as suffering? Because there is a huge bridge between experiencing mere dissatisfaction and experiencing massive pain. And the need for one wouldn't justify the other.

Without pain there is no grind, grind gives life its flavor. Mere dissatisfaction is not enough, there has to be some challenges and struggles along the way. It isn't merely about changing yourself, it's about having the willpower to keep going no matter what life throws at you.

 

[setarcos]

God’s claim to have created humans in His image was just a figure of speech.

It is generally considered in Christianity that "in his image" means self aware. Self identifying in relation to existence and capable of abstract thought beyond ones identified self if that's what you meant by figure of speech.

don’t you think that there is a possible human being, or any not God being, that does not need any supervision in order to perform what is best for it?

Not if that being is in some fashion not omniscient. Omniscience is required in order to factor in universal relations to what actions that being might take making it possible to conclude what's best for it.
Like in chess...and this is horribly simplistic. One might see an opportunity to take the Queen. The most powerful piece on the board. One's decision to take the Queen would be based upon ones ability to project into ones reasoning all the subsequent possible moves effected by and effecting the results of taking that Queen. Lets say your projection of the possible 10 future moves indicates to you that taking the Queen is the best move. However the eleventh move places you in a position firmly on the road to being checkmated because of your initially taking that Queen. Of course we must consider the nature of the phrase "best for". It may very well be that you've decided that its best for you to be checkmated. However that decision too would be based upon a finite understanding of your being and purpose barring omniscience.

or that it realises, out of simple logic, that disobeying an omniscient almighty being is highly irrational?

Again your realization would be based upon limited understanding and while it may be realistic to believe so your limitations would also make it realistic to think yourself out of that.

Honestly, I have no problem to imagine such a being. And as long as such a being belongs to a possible state of affairs of the world, the label “perfect” applied to Adam and Eve does not obtain..

Its one thing to have no problem imagining such a being. Its another to confirm its possibility.
Also you've not defined the relationship such a being has with regards to Adam and Eve's perfection.
Are you saying that a perfect human being should be one which knows perfectly what is best for it to do?
Consider...do you think Adam or Eve had a conception of what it meant to lie? To deceive or be deceived? To actually know what it meant to trust one thing over another?

 

[setarcos]

Well, we will end up doing philosophy of epistemology and all the rest. But sorry, not to day.

Someday then perhaps.

 

[Koldo]

Without pain there is no grind, grind gives life its flavor.

I am sorry to hear that. There is a lot of flavor to be experienced elsewhere.

Mere dissatisfaction is not enough, there has to be some challenges and struggles along the way.

The existence of challenges and struggles doesn't necessitate the existence of massive pain, for example.

It isn't merely about changing yourself, it's about having the willpower to keep going no matter what life throws at you.

I am always left wondering if the one speaking words such as yours ever had to deal with any actual massive struggle.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I am sorry to hear that. There is a lot of flavor to be experienced elsewhere.

There are certainly other flavors. But what is a Snicker's without the nuts? Appreciation of pain is a great thing.

The existence of challenges and struggles doesn't necessitate the existence of massive pain, for example.

What is a struggle without pain? What are some examples of massive pain that you would like to bring to the table, just for clarification?

I am always left wondering if the one speaking words such as yours ever had to deal with any actual massive struggle.

That sounds presumptuous. Of course I have not been crucified, or lived five years in a concentration camp, that isn't to say I haven't dealt with massive struggles. Faith in God can strengthen pain tolerance as well, it seems.

 

[Koldo]

There are certainly other flavors. But what is a Snicker's without the nuts? Appreciation of pain is a great thing.

Once again, I am sorry to hear that.

What is a struggle without pain?

A struggle.

What are some examples of massive pain that you would like to bring to the table, just for clarification?

Out of the top of my mind, the pain caused by: kidney stones, cluster headaches, (multiple) bone fracture, slipped disk, appendicitis...

I can keep going for a bit more, but I don't see the point. Why do you ask?

That sounds presumptuous. Of course I have not been crucified, or lived five years in a concentration camp, that isn't to say I haven't dealt with massive struggles. Faith in God can strengthen pain tolerance as well, it seems.

Have you? I sincerely doubt.