A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[Hockeycowboy]

That's what the myth says. There is no evidence that suggests the story describes actual people and real events.

None of this is factual.

Well then, so much for "perfect minds". A perfect mind doesn't get tempted. So your comment here already has inconsistencies. But welcome to the Bible.

What a savage and Rube Goldberg solution. God wasn't the best creator, always making mistakes to fix. Kind of like how Microsoft had to keep making patches for their flawed Windows 95 platform. But at least Windows solved the problems, unlike salvation.

When? Will God have to create another perfect child and have it killed so a fix will finally work? Maybe a girl this time. Maybe a more horible death.

Obviously you’re not willing to reason on any scriptural ideas, so you’ll keep your misunderstandings.

Relying with disdain to matters you are not willing to understand, is crass.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

While I certainly understand the man's reasoning, I think it's fallacious. It's emotional reasoning.
I don't believe in god because the evidence to believe otherwise is lacking. That's it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

On the contrary, it solves everything.
Losing one's faith results in the loss of everything that matters.
eg. the blessing of family, and the life hereafter

????

How on earth would one lose the "blessing of family" because one doesn't believe in supernatural shenannigans?

I'm an atheist. So are as good as all people close to me, with a few exceptions (although if they wouldn't tell you, you wouldn't be able to discern from their every day live that they have some vague believe in a god). Our family however is very close and supportive.

Ironically, I know of other families that have literally broken apart because of religious differences.
I know of people who literally have "banned" their very own children because they became apostates.

Religion is inherently divisive.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are right, I will not attempt to answer the question, as I have done so many times before,
but you are oblivious of the consequences of disbelief.

When you are incapable of pointing to those consequences and establishing them as real and negative, then I can only conclude that there are no such consequences.

On the other hand, I can very much to the opposite and prove to you how religious belief has negative consequences in many circumstances as religion is inherently divisive.

On the contrary, we all have a future, and our attitude and behaviour shapes it
along with our families.

I don't see how that response relates to the quote you are responding to or how it relates to your claim that religious disbelief is somehow detrimental for families.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You may ask, but it doesn't change the fact that we are mortal.
Would you really want to live forever, here in your mortal body,
where limbs might get cut off, or your internal organs get damaged beyond repair?

You are not answering the question.
You are in fact even ignoring the question.

May I ask why He did not create us directly into everlasting life in perfect health..

In other words, @viole is asking why go through the trouble of "this" life, where your limbs might get cut off or your organs damaged beyond repair....

 

[blü 2]

There is no reason to think that God would appear, say, or do anything, if God existed.
God has no species, sex, height, or distinguishing features, since God is not a human being.

There is no reason to think that God would act when the little kid is drowning in the swimming pool, protect the innocent from the road toll, or prevent droughts and tsunamis from happening because these are human responsibilities.

Isn't that true of everything humans pray for? Peace, justice, equality, decency, sound government. Look where religion's got the Israeli government!, not only corrupt and self-serving, but out loud and proud in its recent power-grab against the judiciary, which is only postponed, not abandoned.

Why bother to pray for ANYTHING? If God wants an agreeable relationship with [his] humans, but isn't prepared to do anything for them, why not respond in the same coin, just leave a sign where you don't have to look at it, reading "Wow, you're terrific, God, no seriously, Wow! Have a lovely day!" Then. like God, you wouldn't have to give the matter another thought.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In other words, @viole is asking why go through the trouble of "this" life, where your limbs might get cut off or your organs damaged beyond repair....

..so the answer is "it doesn't make sense, so we might as well ignore what scripture teaches us, and please ourselves?"
One can ask all sorts of questions about why G-d created the universe as it is .. but at the end of the day, we all try to live life and make it as pleasurable as possible.

..but tomorrow is another day, and that is why people try to establish big bank accounts.
Some people believe in what is hidden from them .. and some would rather believe that this life is all there is.
G-d knows why He created us as mortals .. it is a stage in the development of our souls.
Some die young, and some reach old age .. and not one of us can prevent death.

 

[F1fan]

Obviously you’re not willing to reason on any scriptural ideas, so you’ll keep your misunderstandings.

You aren't reasoning, I am. Reasoning requires facts, and you offer your assumptions and interpretations instead. So your accusation is a case of false witness. If you have some sort of objective understanding that I don't have then it's on your to offer a coherent explanation with facts. You don't. You have your assumptions and beliefs, and these aren't adequate for an argument. You don't seem to understand this, so no wonder you think I'm misunderstanding something.

There is no reason to assume the Adam and Eve story to be anything but symbolic. Theists referring to it as if factual can't show us why they make this error.

Relying with disdain to matters you are not willing to understand, is crass.

Oh the irony. You don't use reason or the rules of logic and debate. You post your beliefs and they are critiqued. You have no rebuttal.

 

[Koldo]

Why do you assume that all creation should serve our comfort?

It is silly to compare suffering as whole with a matter of mere comfort.

 

[Koldo]

I don’t think so

I agree

How is God not a jerk if suffering was designed by him? What would even count as being a jerk if not that?

 

[viole]

He did. Our first parents, Adam & Eve, were created perfect. Perfect bodies, perfect minds. (How do we know they were perfect? Because they and their offspring from the next few generations, had such long lifespans.) They were to pass on their perfect traits to all their descendants. As their offspring, we were to inherit a perfect genome from them.

But to stay perfect, they needed to keep listening to & follow the guidelines of their Creator. They didn’t, so they lost their perfection. They could no longer pass perfection on to us. Romans 5:12

That’s why Jehovah sent Jesus to earth, as a human. Jesus’ sacrifice, as a perfect man, matched what Adam lost for us: perfect human life.

So, living in perfection is coming for the human race.

Ergo, they have never been perfect. On account of the following argument that is an adaptation of the ontological argument.

A being that needs X to keep perfection, is outperformed by a being that does not need to. And since a perfect being cannot be outperformed by any possible other being, it follows that Adam and Eve were not perfect.

And if you ask me, they were not only not perfect, but they were utterly idiotic.

So, apart from that, you seem to indicate that He created Adam and Eve in a state of perfection, but they failed because they did not pay attention, or did not obey, or whatever. How do you know, then, that this will not happen again when you will return to that state? If things got so messed up by two people in almost no time, what are the odds of another epic failure in heaven, with so many people around and so much time available?

Ciao

- viole

 

[F1fan]

..so the answer is "it doesn't make sense, so we might as well ignore what scripture teaches us, and please ourselves?"
One can ask all sorts of questions about why G-d created the universe as it is .. but at the end of the day, we all try to live life and make it as pleasurable as possible.

The problem is those believers who think they are following God and seek their own pleasure even at the cost to others. Your fellow Muslim jihadists who kill innocent people are following what scripture teaches. You have out of daye attitudes towards women and their rights as what you think scripture teaches. It seems believers are more interested in wringing out "teachings" that please themselves (thus God) even if others are jarmed. It's easy for the believer to ignore the pain they cause because the believer is in God's grace, and the harmed are outside of God's grace. This is why humanism is superior to religious frameworks, as it won't allow the believer a more objective assessment of morality and right action.

..but tomorrow is another day, and that is why people try to establish big bank accounts.

What? Bank accounts are only as big as your available cash. You can "try" to establish an account worth millions but you only have a few quid in your pocket. Try as much as you want, it won't amount to millions.

Some people believe in what is hidden from them ..

Even the imaginary.

and some would rather believe that this life is all there is.

And why assume otherwise, ancient lore that exploits the fear of death?

G-d knows why He created us as mortals ..

Asuming a God exists the way you imagine it, yes?

it is a stage in the development of our souls.

There are realistic methods that don't rely on imagined truths that only confuse the self.

Some die young, and some reach old age .. and not one of us can prevent death.

What, all of a sudden you don't believe in an afterlife? Good for you, now get busy living without the burden of a head full of irrational religious concepts.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

How is God not a jerk if suffering was designed by him? What would even count as being a jerk if not that?

A perfect existence would be a bland existence and therefore meaningless.

 

[F1fan]

A perfect existence would be a bland existence and therefore meaningless.

I don't think anyone demands perfect, but is life without mosquitoes and cancer too much to ask for? Maybe I'll be struck by lightening later today for brining it up. Don't want to make the loving God look like he doesn't know what he's doing, right?

 

[setarcos]

A being that needs X to keep perfection, is outperformed by a being that does not need to. And since a perfect being cannot be outperformed by any possible other being, it follows that Adam and Eve were not perfect.

I don't think your logic here is quite fair. You must define what it is about the being we are talking about that defines its perfection. In order to do that first, what are the characteristics which define a human being? Then, what would those characteristics be like when perfected?
Once we do that we might critique why Adam and Eve failed to meet the standard of being perfect human beings.
So...what is your answer to those first two questions above? After you answer them I may be able to show where your misunderstanding the perfection of Adam and Eve....or not, but maybe.

 

[PureX]

It is silly to compare suffering as whole with a matter of mere comfort.

Why do you assume that mankind should not suffer?

Also, how much of mankind's suffering is willfully and mutually inflicted? If we won't even stop hurting each other, why should we presume that God should stop everything that exists from hurting us?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't think your logic here is quite fair. You must define what it is about the being we are talking about that defines its perfection. In order to do that first, what are the characteristics which define a human being? Then, what would those characteristics be like when perfected?
Once we do that we might critique why Adam and Eve failed to meet the standard of being perfect human beings.
So...what is your answer to those first two questions above? After you answer them I may be able to show where your misunderstanding the perfection of Adam and Eve....or not, but maybe.

Yeah, that is a subjective game. You choose subjectively a set of standards as perfect of a human and declare victory, because your set is objective in effect.

 

[F1fan]

I don't think your logic here is quite fair. You must define what it is about the being we are talking about that defines its perfection. In order to do that first, what are the characteristics which define a human being? Then, what would those characteristics be like when perfected?

Does it really matter? They failed to resist temptation, so even if they looked like perfect 10's in the hot bod contest it is irrelevant given their failure to resist. Obviously they weren't perfect. It was either a failure by God, or a set up for them to fail. If God wanted them to resist temptation don't you think God would have made them able to resist?

Once we do that we might critique why Adam and Eve failed to meet the standard of being perfect human beings.
So...what is your answer to those first two questions above? After you answer them I may be able to show where your misunderstanding the perfection of Adam and Eve....or not, but maybe.

I don't see any argument for the "perfection of A&E" apart from them being innocent. But that makes God the offender for exploiting their innocence. Had God not put the Serpent in the Garden to tempt them perhaps they would have obeyed. Did God not know the outcome? If not, then it's an incompetent God at work, thus not perfect.

 

[Koldo]

Why do you assume that mankind should not suffer?

Also, how much of mankind's suffering is willfully and mutually inflicted? If we won't even stop hurting each other, why should we presume that God should stop everything that exists from hurting us?

Since none of this justifies you comparing suffering to a matter of comfort, I will take it you don't have a justification to offer.

 

[Koldo]

A perfect existence would be a bland existence and therefore meaningless.

How would the absence of suffering entail a perfect existence? Would your life be meaningless without the potential of suffering? You just got me worried now.