A Christians Duty and Financial Gains

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wonder why Jesus made comment about the well fed and them one day entering into hunger?

The general message I get from the "woes" of the Sermon on the Plain is that people get to choose between this life and the next: whatever wealth, comfort or social standing you enjoy now will diminish what you receive later.

 

[MikeF]

Wouldn't that depend on how big the needle is?

Or perhaps how small the camel is?

 

[Balthazzar]

And what do you need money for other than to assuage your worries about how your physical needs will be met?

Jesus calls those who worry about how their physical needs are met "you of little faith." Keeping wealth - even if it's just to pay for food and shelter - implies a lack of trust that God will do as he promised.

Typically speaking, money offers greater opportunity to live a more pleasant life. It offers more luxury than having none. It is also a life reality. I have faith that has been substantiated and evidenced, namely that money has that ability. I also have substantiated faith, evidenced by a lifetime of money exchange and increase that this system has been placed and given to us for this specific purpose. The difference is between honoring what's been given as a vehicle for increase in hope of better life experiences or to not honor it as a vehicle for that purpose.

 

[Balthazzar]

The general message I get from the "woes" of the Sermon on the Plain is that people get to choose between this life and the next: whatever wealth, comfort or social standing you enjoy now will diminish what you receive later.

I see it differently.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see it differently.

Apparently.

Is it for any particular reason besides "the sacrifice that's asked of me would be uncomfortable"?

 

[Balthazzar]

I'm saying that the Bible condemns personal wealth, and that a wealthy Christian living in comfort is a hypocrite.

I will ask you to cite your sources for this view - Chapter and verse if garnered from your readings of the scriptures. If not from the scriptures, then I have no idea why you might view it this way. I will suggest that you're misinformed and/or misunderstanding the basics of Christian doctrine, particularly as it concerns financial increase and prosperity. As for myself, I would rather you view me a hypocrite than to negate the principle of increase and the expectation for us to be prosperous as Christians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I will ask you to cite your sources for this view - Chapter and verse if garnered from your readings of the scriptures.

Matthew 6. The Sermon on the Plain (especially Jesus explicitly saying "woe to you who are rich"). The story of the rich man and Lazarus. The Widow's Offering.

Do you need more?

If not from the scriptures, then I have no idea why you might view it this way. I will suggest that you're misinformed and/or misunderstanding the basics of Christian doctrine, particularly as it concerns financial increase and prosperity.

I am likely quite ignorant of the cherry-picking spin of your particular church.

As for myself, I would rather you view me a hypocrite than to negate the principle of increase and the expectation for us to be prosperous as Christians.

You're free to explain why you think I shouldn't see your approach as hypocritical.

 

[Koldo]

We like investing, increasing, and keeping things moving. Hoarding money has never been my strong suit. It seems pointless sometimes if not typically. I've never been opposed to increasing my financial status, however. I enjoy the finer things in life and money hoarding doesn't lend itself much to the finer things in life.

"40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

- Matthew 5 NIV

This is part of the sermon on the mount. If you live by this teaching too, be ready to cease enjoying the finer things for quite some time because I am about to ask you for some money.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We like investing, increasing, and keeping things moving. Hoarding money has never been my strong suit. It seems pointless sometimes if not typically. I've never been opposed to increasing my financial status, however. I enjoy the finer things in life and money hoarding doesn't lend itself much to the finer things in life.

In the parable of the talents, inagine there was another slave who gave his master back his original two talents plus a handful of denarii and said "master, I doubled your money! I would have had 4 talents to return to you, but I enjoy the finer things in life." How do you think the master would have responded?

 

[Balthazzar]

Matthew 6. The Sermon on the Plain (especially Jesus explicitly saying "woe to you who are rich"). The story of the rich man and Lazarus. The Widow's Offering.

Do you need more?




I am likely quite ignorant of the cherry-picking spin of your particular church.





You're free to explain why you think I shouldn't see your approach as hypocritical.

Interesting translation you choose to reference. The widow's offering came from poverty, which is why it was so important, given her need. She still gave and made effort to increase. The woe to the rich is barely computing even after searching for the text. 1 Timothy 6:9 came up and has nothing to do with being rich at all, but rather it's about those who desire to be and how they so often fall into trouble from these pursuits. Like I've already stated in this thread, greed has a way of getting certain types to screw people over, which I view to be a moral deficiency. If you are required to harm others to become rich, then it might be better to find alternatives to that pursuit. That particular passage is about contentment. If you feel as if you need to harm others to become rich, then it's best to be content with what you're able to do without harming others. You may not become rich, but you may still be able to make some financial gains.

I'd prefer that you explain why you think my approach is hypocritical.

 

[Balthazzar]

"40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

- Matthew 5 NIV

This is part of the sermon on the mount. If you live by this teaching too, be ready to cease enjoying the finer things for quite some time because I am about to ask you for some money.

Even living as a homeless man, I am asked quite often for things, and sometimes they are asked with the intent to accommodate exactly what you just suggested. I'm not entirely new to Satanism. The tactics utilized become apparent after a few years of association. It's typically the rebellious types that do this and it's done specifically to oppose and rebel against Christians. I'm not a Satanist, but I can be. I can claim to be a Luciferian and remain no less honest about it than I am when I claim to be a United States citizen, which I am and have been since 1970. With that said, casting pearls comes to mind, given the extraordinary efforts made to utilize these tactics against those of a similar household. Truth be told, I honor my left no less than I honor my right.

 

[MikeF]

I see it differently.

And so it is, and ever shall be. Each to interpret as conforms to their wants and needs.

 

[Koldo]

Even living as a homeless man,

Homeless as in living on the streets?
Given your previous posts on this topic I thought you were well-off in your life, at least as far as your finances go.

I am asked quite often for things, and sometimes they are asked with the intent to accommodate exactly what you just suggested.

To accomodate what exactly?

I'm not entirely new to Satanism. The tactics utilized become apparent after a few years of association. It's typically the rebellious types that do this and it's done specifically to oppose and rebel against Christians. I'm not a Satanist, but I can be. I can claim to be a Luciferian and remain no less honest about it than I am when I claim to be a United States citizen, which I am and have been since 1970. With that said, casting pearls comes to mind, given the extraordinary efforts made to utilize these tactics against those of a similar household. Truth be told, I honor my left no less than I honor my right.

Are you calling me a Satanist because I said I was about to ask you for money? You see me as in a direct opposition to you because of that? Are you sure your God is not Mammon?

 

[Balthazzar]

And so it is, and ever shall be. Each to interpret as conforms to their wants and needs.

Comformity to basic principles is a logical stance, imo. Physics for example: It just makes sense to comform and live in a manner not in opposition to the laws of physics. When money is involved, financial gain and increasing our quality of life through these channels, I would think, given the long standing nature of the principles behind obtaining money that comformity to this vehicle is not only expected, but can also be beneficial, both personally and in terms of ability to help increase our increase by leveraging a portion of that increase by investing in other, more capable entities, who have greater buying power than my individual self. I choose not to harm others. The former sentence is long winded I know, but you likely understand my point just the same. When it comes to organized religion and traditions and practice, well ... I prefer a more logical approach. I try to utilize my personal qualities and honest spirit in an effort to honor the necessities associated with my faith, which can be summed up as an effort to honor truth, particularly my personal truth as a unique individual. Call it my personal relationship with the way, the truth, and life because that's exactly what it is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting translation you choose to reference.

It was recommended to me by a Biblical scholar... actually a former staff member here; a pastor who was finishing his PhD in New Testament Studies while he was here.

The widow's offering came from poverty, which is why it was so important, given her need. She still gave and made effort to increase.

What do you mean by "made effort to increase" in this context?

The woe to the rich is barely computing even after searching for the text. 1 Timothy 6:9 came up and has nothing to do with being rich at all, but rather it's about those who desire to be and how they so often fall into trouble from these pursuits.

I told you that it was in the Sermon on the Plain. Are you familiar with it? It's one of the more famous passages; is it one that your church skips over?

Here's the account from Luke. Note the bits that I've highlighted:

Then[bn] he looked up[bo] at his disciples and said:

“Blessed[bp] are you who are poor,[bq] for the kingdom of God belongs[br] to you.

21 “Blessed are you who hunger[bs] now, for you will be satisfied.[bt]

“Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.[bu]

22 “Blessed are you when people[bv] hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject you as evil[bw] on account of the Son of Man! 23 Rejoice in that day, and jump for joy, because[bx] your reward is great in heaven. For their ancestors[by] did the same things to the prophets.[bz]

24 “But woe[ca] to you who are rich, for you have received[cb] your comfort[cc] already.

25 “Woe to you who are well satisfied with food[cd] now, for you will be hungry.

“Woe to you[ce] who laugh[cf] now, for you will mourn and weep.

26 “Woe to you[cg] when all people[ch] speak well of you, for their ancestors[ci] did the same things to the false prophets.

Like I've already stated in this thread, greed has a way of getting certain types to screw people over, which I view to be a moral deficiency.

It's not just about greed; it's about being "rich" enough not to have to go hungry.

If you are required to harm others to become rich, then it might be better to find alternatives to that pursuit.

Becoming rich necessarily involves harm to others. There's an opportunity cost for every decision. Every dollar that you keep is a dollar that could have gone to some important cause but didn't.

That particular passage is about contentment. If you feel as if you need to harm others to become rich, then it's best to be content with what you're able to do without harming others. You may not become rich, but you may still be able to make some financial gains.

Why would someone who thinks that God will fully provide for them need "financial gains"?

I'd prefer that you explain why you think my approach is hypocritical.

I told you: it's because of the many passages in the Bible that command poverty or condemn wealth.

The way we would need to resolve this is for you to show how your position is consistent with the Bible... the entire Bible. As it stands, you seem to be ignoring large chunks of it, especially from the Gospels.

For instance, you would need to come up with some rationalization for how when Luke 6:24 records Jesus saying "woe to you who are rich" he doesn't actually mean "woe to you who are rich."

 

[Balthazzar]

Homeless as in living on the streets?
Given your previous posts on this topic I thought you were well-off in your life, at least as far as your finances go.



To accomodate what exactly?



Are you calling me a Satanist because I said I was about to ask you for money? You see me as in a direct opposition to you because of that? Are you sure your God is not Mammon?

I'm suggesting that what you implied is a satanist tactic and a common effort against Christians, although I'm not a Satanist. I am homeless, but I get by in shelters and occasional motel rooms. Well off? Well, I do pretty good under these circumstances. There's no point in lying about. I'm fed well, I have available water that's clean, a place I can lay my head down at night, and some opportunity to make financial increase, albeit a limited opportunity. I do what I'm able, but it is time consuming and a near daily battle.

 

[Balthazzar]

It was recommended to me by a Biblical scholar... actually a former staff member here; a pastor who was finishing his PhD in New Testament Studies while he was here.



What do you mean by "made effort to increase" in this context?




I told you that it was in the Sermon on the Plain. Are you familiar with it? It's one of the more famous passages; is it one that your church skips over?

Here's the account from Luke. Note the bits that I've highlighted:

Then[bn] he looked up[bo] at his disciples and said:

“Blessed[bp] are you who are poor,[bq] for the kingdom of God belongs[br] to you.

21 “Blessed are you who hunger[bs] now, for you will be satisfied.[bt]

“Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.[bu]

22 “Blessed are you when people[bv] hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject you as evil[bw] on account of the Son of Man! 23 Rejoice in that day, and jump for joy, because[bx] your reward is great in heaven. For their ancestors[by] did the same things to the prophets.[bz]

24 “But woe[ca] to you who are rich, for you have received[cb] your comfort[cc] already.

25 “Woe to you who are well satisfied with food[cd] now, for you will be hungry.

“Woe to you[ce] who laugh[cf] now, for you will mourn and weep.

26 “Woe to you[cg] when all people[ch] speak well of you, for their ancestors[ci] did the same things to the false prophets.




It's not just about greed; it's about being "rich" enough not to have to go hungry.



Becoming rich necessarily involves harm to others. There's an opportunity cost for every decision. Every dollar that you keep is a dollar that could have gone to some important cause but didn't.



Why would someone who thinks that God will fully provide for them need "financial gains"?




I told you: it's because of the many passages in the Bible that command poverty or condemn wealth.

The way we would need to resolve this is for you to show how your position is consistent with the Bible... the entire Bible. As it stands, you seem to be ignoring large chunks of it, especially from the Gospels.

For instance, you would need to come up with some rationalization for how when Luke 6:24 records Jesus saying "woe to you who are rich" he doesn't actually mean "woe to you who are rich."

I'd appreciate a direct reference to the text you utilized from your PHd pastor selected translation. If you don't mind. I'm the type who actually demands more from myself than a simple reference un-referenced to sway or be considered as anything remotely valid. I am familiar with the be-attitudes, which is what you quoted. I would still like the references. If you don't mind. I've already asked for them once. Cherry picking is not my strong suit. Oh, why else would we be asked to give a portion of our increase to particular entities? Our churches help feed others, our tax dollars help fund social programs and to make improvements in our communities. The bible never condemns wealth itself, but rather it condemns being irresponsible with the gaining and suggests that you utilize your gains to help increase your personal well being, which in turn (if responsible with the giving) inevitably makes even greater increases.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I see a good deal of disagreement when it comes to Christians and money, namely Christians seeking monetary gains as Christians. It's a sad thing, imo, when people ridicule others for making money, working to make money, intentionally as Christian's laboring to make money, suggesting that it's somehow un-Christian for a Christian to seek financial increase. It's expected that we increase our wealth. It's suggested that we are responsible by making financial increases. If we're not making financial gains as Christians, what kind of Christians does that imply we are?

Slothful?
Foolish?

It's a Christian duty to make increase so we are better able to fulfill our obligations. Money has never been evil. Greed, on the other hand is an entirely different matter. The difference between greed and efforts to increase our wealth? The parable of the talents comes to mind. If I'm given 100 dollars and make no increase with that 100 dollars, how am I honoring anyone, including myself, particularly if I don't utilize it and simply save it? If I increase the $100 by 10 dollars, then I'm likewise expected to tithe or rather reinvest $1.00 of that increase to be leveraged again by larger bodies.

Why do some people view financial gain to be sinful or immoral behavior by Christians?

It’s all a question of balance and of what you do with your gains.

Assess your relationship to money.

Do you crave it? Then, you are likely addicted to what you believe it provides you with; be that possessions or attributes (status, influence, power, etc.)

Do you hoard it? Then, you are likely frightened and of little faith in the talents you were blessed with - perhaps your trust in God is weak?

Do you sacrifice too much living, in your pursuit of it? Then, it is your master and you, its slave. This shall likely leave you in spiritual poverty.

Do you use it only to further your own gains and benefits? Then, you are in competition against your fellow beings. Even -and especially when- you win, you shall see others always as threats and never as the kindred friends they could have been, had you not been so busy defending “your” position. A lonely worldly life is an empty experience.

But, if it [money] comes easily to you and you trust life and God enough to happily share your good fortunes around, in full confidence that life shall not leave you lacking of what you need (learn to distinguish between needs and wants; they are very different), then you are being a responsible Christian financially too. And in my experience, that increases the likelihood of your continued good fortune.

Humbly,
Hermit

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd appreciate a direct reference to the text you utilized from your PHd pastor selected translation. If you don't mind. I'm the type who actually demands more from myself than a simple reference un-referenced to sway or be considered as anything remotely valid.

If you prefer a different translation, I really don't care. You go ahead and look at whatever Bible version you want.

But what I am going to assume is:

- you're a Christian who is familiar with the Bible, especially frequently-quoted passages, and

- you can use Google.

I am familiar with the be-attitudes, which is what you quoted.

Why do you spell "beatitudes" that way?

I would still like the references. If you don't mind. I've already asked for them once.

I don't know what you're asking. If you're curious about how the NET Bible translates any particular verse, you can easily pull it up on Biblegateway.com.

And like I said: I don't really care which translation you use.

Cherry picking is not my strong suit.

We'll see.

Oh, why else would we be asked to give a portion of our increase to particular entities?

What are you referring to here? Do you have a particular passage in mind?

Our churches help feed others, our tax dollars help fund social programs and to make improvements in our communities.

And every dollar you withhold from your church because you "enjoy the finer things in life" is a dollar that doesn't go to those causes.

The bible never condemns wealth itself, but rather it condemns being irresponsible with the gaining

The Bible does condemn being irresponsible, but it also has many passages that condemn wealth itself.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is one example.

and suggests that you utilize your gains to help increase your personal well being,

It does? Where, exactly?

which in turn (if responsible with the giving) inevitably makes even greater increases.

Growing one's wealth arguably does that. Consuming one's wealth to live in comfort does not.

 

[Balthazzar]

It’s all a question of balance and of what you do with your gains.

Assess your relationship to money.

Do you crave it? Then, you are likely addicted to what you believe it provides you with; be that possessions or attributes (status, influence, power, etc.)

Do you hoard it? Then, you are likely frightened and of little faith in the talents you were blessed with - perhaps your trust in God is weak?

Do you sacrifice too much living, in your pursuit of it? Then, it is your master and you, its slave. This shall likely leave you in spiritual poverty.

Do you use it only to further your own gains and benefits? Then, you are in competition against your fellow beings. Even -and especially when- you win, you shall see others always as threats and never as the kindred friends they could have been, had you not been so busy defending “your” position. A lonely worldly life is an empty experience.

But, if it [money] comes easily to you and you trust life and God enough to happily share your good fortunes around, in full confidence that life shall not leave you lacking of what you need (learn to distinguish between needs and wants; they are very different), then you are being a responsible Christian financially too. And in my experience, that increases the likelihood of your continued good fortune.

Humbly,
Hermit

I appreciate your contribution, but sometimes I do crave more money. Particularly after my alloted disability payment runs its course two weeks before I am scheduled to receive another allotment. I tend to spend what's allotted on work tools, compatible work environments for my line of work according to my personal ability, and on food, clothes's, etc. It rarely lasts the entire month, and although I am a tobacco smoker, the typical amount spent on tobacco is insignificant to my financial struggle itself. I write, do what I'm able to aquire my needed tools, and I am learning to paint, given I have a natural talent and affinity for it. Photography is my chosen profession, and equipment costs are `pretty high, so I invest in other areas where ability is present until I'm better able to continue on my chosen path. I refuse to hoard my money. It serves a greater purpose when I utilize it in my community and for tools of my particular trades.