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A collection of gun/gun control/ gun culture links for your research pleasure

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Are you assuming that facts matter to the chest-thumping "I be adult, I should haz guns!!!" types? :eek:
Tis only to us that facts matter.
It's why we must always explain the technicalities
of what would be banned to those advocating it.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Do you see people arguing against fire extinguishers? See, that's the stupidity of the thing.
How many people have fire extinguishers killed?
It's like saying a hammer is bad because someone could possibly kill someone with it.
Hammers are designed to maim and injure.
The problem is a psychiatric one, not a firearms issue.
Those with mental illness are less likely to commit a violent crime than someone without a mental illness, and those with are more likely to be the victims of violent crimes. And when we look at other Western countries, clearly the problem lies with guns and our crap gun laws.
Per your safety argument, yeah you are safer with a gun no matter what you think.
No, as just having a gun puts on at a higher risk of gun violence.
The thing that often isn't published is how many crimes are completely prevented by a firearm.
They are published. However, it doesn't happen that often.
If you own one - your chance of being robbed, raped, murdered, and anything else go to near absolute zero.
I very much doubt that. That also ignores the fact you need the opportunity to actually use your gun, or it is utterly useless. They aren't magic shields that will keep you from harm.
it's like the nuclear deterrent, if you had to fire it you can, but most people aren't that stupid to test you.
If you don't plan on firing it, you definitely shouldn't be getting it out during attack, as that will only serve to put you at a higher risk of having your gun turned against you.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You clearly didn't read the links. These are research, not opinion articles
Perusing just the first one, in Sci Am, it would be more accurate
to call it research based opinion...or perhaps opinion based research.
As is oft wisely said, "all research is theory laden", ie, there is a tendency
for research to be constructed to support a particular theory. This can
take the form of assumptions which steer the results.
From that article.....
saw1017Moye32_d(1).png

The NCVS considers only actual attack victims. This would exclude a large number of people who were threatened with attack, but thwarted it by presenting a handgun (included in Kleck's studies). This choice isn't right or wrong....just different. But it's presented as though it debunk's Kleck's results. Moreover, the NCVS results claim to show self defense use of a gun is rare, but this is a value judgement which I find incredible. To call 65,000 "rare" is to paint a picture of the utility of armed self defense as insignificant. But 65K is a relatively large number relative to yearly wrongful gun deaths.

Too often, statistics are boiled down to a simple number or conclusion, & this is taken on faith because it's called "scientific". But even statisticians have their agendas. (It's just like the "18 school shootings in 2018", which include over 10% accidents by cops behaving unsafely in schools, but without injury.) So we should look deeper than the simple distilled result. We find that by any measure in the context of gun use, armed self defense is not "rare".

Why does it being common rather than rare matter? It should give a new perspective to those clamoring for banishment. Perhaps they'll consider proposals which allow for the existence of guns, but with better regulation, eg, more training for owners, strict secure storage requirements, better government management of information about people prohibited from owning guns, pro-active mental health services, prevention of bullying, better facility security. Many of these measures are immediately achievable.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Perusing just the first one, in Sci Am, it would be more accurate
to call it research based opinion...or perhaps opinion based research.
As is oft wisely said, "all research is theory laden", ie, there is a tendency
for research to be constructed to support a particular theory. This can
take the form of assumptions which steer the results.
From that article.....
saw1017Moye32_d(1).png

The NCVS considers only actual attack victims. This would exclude a large number of people who were threatened with attack, but thwarted it by presenting a handgun (included in Kleck's studies). This choice isn't right or wrong....just different. But it's presented as though it debunk's Kleck's results. Moreover, the NCVS results claim to show self defense use of a gun is rare, but this is a value judgement which I find incredible. To call 65,000 "rare" is to paint a picture of the utility of armed self defense as insignificant. But 65K is a relatively large number relative to yearly wrongful gun deaths.

Too often, statistics are boiled down to a simple number or conclusion, & this is taken on faith because it's called "scientific". But even statisticians have their agendas. (It's just like the "18 school shootings in 2018", which include over 10% accidents by cops behaving unsafely in schools, but without injury.) So we should look deeper than the simple distilled result. We find that by any measure in the context of gun use, armed self defense is not "rare".

Why does it being common rather than rare matter? It should give a new perspective to those clamoring for banishment. Perhaps they'll consider proposals which allow for the existence of guns, but with better regulation, eg, more training for owners, strict secure storage requirements, better government management of information about people prohibited from owning guns, pro-active mental health services, prevention of bullying, better facility security. Many of these measures are immediately achievable.
I'm experimenting with mixing Amaretto, Kahlua & such.
Results are disappointing, which means more experimentation.
So if you see something more bonkers than usual, it's PUI.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Perusing just the first one, in Sci Am, it would be more accurate
to call it research based opinion...or perhaps opinion based research.
As is oft wisely said, "all research is theory laden", ie, there is a tendency
for research to be constructed to support a particular theory. This can
take the form of assumptions which steer the results.
From that article.....
saw1017Moye32_d(1).png

The NCVS considers only actual attack victims. This would exclude a large number of people who were threatened with attack, but thwarted it by presenting a handgun (included in Kleck's studies). This choice isn't right or wrong....just different. But it's presented as though it debunk's Kleck's results. Moreover, the NCVS results claim to show self defense use of a gun is rare, but this is a value judgement which I find incredible. To call 65,000 "rare" is to paint a picture of the utility of armed self defense as insignificant. But 65K is a relatively large number relative to yearly wrongful gun deaths.

Too often, statistics are boiled down to a simple number or conclusion, & this is taken on faith because it's called "scientific". But even statisticians have their agendas. (It's just like the "18 school shootings in 2018", which include over 10% accidents by cops behaving unsafely in schools, but without injury.) So we should look deeper than the simple distilled result. We find that by any measure in the context of gun use, armed self defense is not "rare".

Why does it being common rather than rare matter? It should give a new perspective to those clamoring for banishment. Perhaps they'll consider proposals which allow for the existence of guns, but with better regulation, eg, more training for owners, strict secure storage requirements, better government management of information about people prohibited from owning guns, pro-active mental health services, prevention of bullying, better facility security. Many of these measures are immediately achievable.

Look at all the studies; there is a preponderance of evidence
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Look at all the studies; there is a preponderance of evidence
There are so many, so I picked just a portion of one...my limit tonite.
But if the others suffer from the same flaws as the 2 I examined
today, then it would be fairer to call it a "preponderance of studies".

Note though....you get credit for posting more cromulent
information than most on this heated topic. The greatest
value isn't the conclusions, but rather getting into the
meat of the work. I find your links interesting.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
If you can't justify it, it is only a matter of time.

Your wrong there. It is a right. It does not have to be justified.

Or should other human rights be asked to justify themselves? You are traveling down an extremely slippery slope when you start asking for justification for rights.

Privileges? Sure it's ok to ask for justification. But taking away rights is not up for discussion.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Your wrong there. It is a right. It does not have to be justified.

Or should other human rights be asked to justify themselves? You are traveling down an extremely slippery slope when you start asking for justification for rights.

Privileges? Sure it's ok to ask for justification. But taking away rights is not up for discussion.

The sole fact the right we are talking about was created by an ammendment that contains in itself the justification for its existence is sufficient to dismiss your post.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
The sole fact the right we are talking about was created by an ammendment that contains in itself the justification for its existence is sufficient to dismiss your post.

That was it's design.

You can plug your ears and ignore it if you want to. But the 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
That was it's design.

You can plug your ears and ignore it if you want to. But the 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere.

And back with the Constitution you went.

You can't draw justification outside of it even though many other countries have shown balance of government powers and reasonable control of gun violence.

Slavery was legal until it couldn't be justified any longer. Try to justify your position without a parchment suggesting you're right to. Oh, but you're a theist so that might be hard to do to begin with.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
And back with the Constitution you went.

You can't draw justification outside of it even though many other countries have shown balance of government powers and reasonable control of gun violence.

Slavery was legal until it couldn't be justified any longer. Try to justify your position without a parchment suggesting you're right to. Oh, but you're a theist so that might be hard to do to begin with.

I don't have to. It is a right. Deal with it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Chicago has open borders. No city can implement such control without being able to control its borders.

Sure you can point to Chicago as a failure, while I'll point to UK, Australia, Japan, South Korea and many more Western countries as being successful. Why is it that these nations hundreds if not thousands of times bigger than Chicago are so successful?

Well, there goes your argument. So back to the constitution with ya.
Same open borders as drugs huh? If people can smuggle in drugs, they can smuggle in guns.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That was it's design.

You can plug your ears and ignore it if you want to. But the 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere.
The 2nd amendment was about well regulated militias, not individual rights to own firearms.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
The 2nd amendment was about well regulated militias, not individual rights to own firearms.

Nope, you can look into supreme Court decisions to see that it is about individuals rights.

District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia

"District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570(2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

So off with ye militia bullshiz!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Nope, you can look into supreme Court decisions to see that it is about individuals rights.

District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia

"District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570(2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

So off with ye militia bullshiz!
Interesting that the decision was so close.
If one had to belong to a militia in order to exercise the right,
but the right to form one is not protected, then government
would be able to prohibit all gun ownership.
So 4 of the justices essentially saw no right at all. But the
framers saw the individual right in English common law,
which suggests the USSC could void all common law too.
All rights exist only with continual vigilance.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Same open borders as drugs huh? If people can smuggle in drugs, they can smuggle in guns.

Oh, did you miss my post on statistics concerning gun control from other Western nations? We are behind by factors of 10 to 100.

Why is there such a discrepancy?
 
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