Since you are not very welcoming of comments to 'your thread' and apparently needing only what you want to hear....we might just leave you to it then.....
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A "Deep" Question
- Thread starter sandy whitelinger
- Start date
Since you are not very welcoming of comments to 'your thread' and apparently needing only what you want to hear....we might just leave you to it then.....
Using the text, there is no way of knowing. There is no implication as to how it got there.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You misunderstand. I asked a very specific question and got general answers that may not have been addressed the topic. I hate bunny trails.Since you are not very welcoming of comments to 'your thread' and apparently needing only what you want to hear....we might just leave you to it then.....
What bunny trail? You said..."I'm just trying to figure out how the deep got there and where it existed...using the text."
I answered that question by using verses 1 & 2 of Genesis 1.
The water was there already as it says in verse 2..."Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s spirit was moving about over the surface of the waters."
I was pointing out that water was what made Earth unique in our solar system....."formless" mean having no shape so a planet completely covered with water has no visible shapes.
It was "desolate" because it was "empty" not having been prepared for habitation yet.
It was dark because light could not penetrate to the surface for some reason, possibly because of cloud cover. "God's spirit was moving about over the surface of the waters" preparing the planet for what would be required to host the life he had not yet created.
That is just in verse 2. I can't put it more simply than that.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Ok, where did the solar system come from. Not verse 1 and 2.
Your formless analogy. Of course something covered in water has a form. I don't see that as being applicable.
Desolate? It was void. That's a different meaning. Plus that's the earth.
Dark and light came later.
Cloud cover. You need an atmosphere. So far we have God, water, and a concept of earth.
The surface of the deep. That implies form.
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sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Using the text we know a lot of things. There's God. Heaven. Earth. The deep.
God created heaven and earth. Earth was seemingly an idea. The was water everywhere yet it had a surface meaning a border. God was on the side of the boundary that was not water.
You see. There is a lot to discern. Now, since God only created heaven and a formless earth then it seems the deep must have already existed. Now, where was heaven? It seems an important question because it's location determines whether it was in the water or outside the water.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
My reading of this is that the first two statements are two ways of looking at the same thing. It is a common literary form in the Jewish Testament to make a broad statement then make a more detailed statement about the first statement. So the deep and the spirit are in image of what it looked like according to the author when God started creating...i think that in any age such an image would best be interpreted in a poetic or semi-metaphorical way. Nothing of the earth or the heavens was created at this point.
Waters might be the best match real world substance to a formless, chaos of energy.
Verse 1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." This is the physical heavens that incorporate all the galaxies in existence. Our solar system was a speck in all that creation.
The earth itself had a form like all the other planets and moons but nothing on the earth did, anymore than the ocean has a form.
It is flat...formless.
What does "void" mean? It means "empty" so the earth was empty...it contained no life at that point. It was initially a giant ball of water.
Light came first. (Genesis 1:3) It displaced the "darkness" and made a division between day and night.
The visibility of the heavenly bodies came later. There was enough light for vegetation to grow.
Who said? If God can suspend a water canopy above the earth by his own command, then he hardly needs an atmosphere to shroud the earth in some kind of blanket preventing light from penetrating to the surface. He doesn't tell us what prevented light from being visible at that time.
As above..."the surface of the deep" is formless like the ocean.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
So this a view that verse 1 is an introduction. In verse two then God starts the process with what's already there. Yet the deep had a surface which means it wasn't formless. What was on the side that wasn't water?
And I still have a problem with finding three heavens if verse 1 is just an intro.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Your supposing way too many things not in evidence and some things are just wrong. For example the firmament is where the sun moon and stars are, not the heaven of 1:1.Verse 1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." This is the physical heavens that incorporate all the galaxies in existence. Our solar system was a speck in all that creation.
The earth itself had a form like all the other planets and moons but nothing on the earth did, anymore than the ocean has a form.
It is flat...formless.
What does "void" mean? It means "empty" so the earth was empty...it contained no life at that point. It was initially a giant ball of water.
Light came first. (Genesis 1:3) It displaced the "darkness" and made a division between day and night.
The visibility of the heavenly bodies came later. There was enough light for vegetation to grow.
Who said? If God can suspend a water canopy above the earth by his own command, then he hardly needs an atmosphere to shroud the earth in some kind of blanket preventing light from penetrating to the surface. He doesn't tell us what prevented light from being visible at that time.
As above..."the surface of the deep" is formless like the ocean.
A round sphere covered in water is a form.
Sure God can do whatever but when there is just God, heaven and a formless Earth and the deep , I fail to see a cloudy sky.
Byington's Translation renders Genesis 1:6-7...
"And God said “Let there be a firmament through the waters to part waters from waters”; ...
7 and God made the firmament and parted the waters below the firmament from the waters above the firmament, and it was so"
That means the "firmamnent" is the atmosphere where there was water above it and below it. The firmament is where birds fly. That is not where the sun, moon and stars are. There is no water in space. The "heavens" of Genesis 1:1 are the physical universe.
The surface of that round sphere, if it is completely covered in water is "formless" like the ocean. How is that confusing?
Dry land has form.
This is what God caused to form when he made the oceans gather in one place as the land was pushed to the surface.
He does not tell us what prevented the sun's light from being visible but other scripture gives us a clue about the situation...
Job 38:9...speaking of the Earth God said....."When I made clouds the garment thereof, And thick darkness a swaddling-band for it" (ASV)
This seems to indicate that God wrapped the earth in clouds, much like a mother swaddles her baby.
The Earth and moon were created by God on the fourth day (after day and night, and after plants). The dry land of the Earth was created on the third day. The water that was used to form the water of the Earth pre-dated the first day. The rest of the solar system isn't mentioned.
Do you have any reason to rule out the possibility that the Bible might say contradictory things?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
As a foundation of inquiry, yes I make the assumption there are no inconsistencies.
And I hear you on the earth side of things. Except the earth appeared out of the waters and was named on the third day.
IIRC, the word rendered "made" in your translation means something more like "spread out by hammering" with the implication that it's describing something ductile like a sheet of metal. Why are you excluding this interpretation?
But did the authors of Gensis know this?
Why do you make that assumption?
How do you resolve the fact that a "formless" thing had a surface that God was moving over?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I make the assumption so that I continue digging for a meaning that fits the narrative.
The waters had a surface not the earth, which means water on one side and something else must have been on the other side I would presume.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
An example of the fruit if this assumption. I no longer believe Genesis1 explains entirely the natural world. This opens new doors of inquiry and puts me in the position of believing what seems to be a conundrum. That is I believe both accounts to be true. The only answer seems to be that they are describing different things.
By definition the heavens would not be in the water. (Unless I am missing your point) My question has been about the earth being "void and without form." Was it void and without form, covered in water because God created it that way. Or was it flooded in order to clean the slate (so to speak) and start over from scratch with new life forms. I don't know. Interesting subject to ponder, but scriptural certainty I do not know. @Deeje might have a thought.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Yet my question is not about the earth. And where does this definition of heaven come from the doesn't allow water in heaven? I seem to recall a river in heaven mentioned in Revelation.
I assume you are talking about the Genesis account of creation, here it is;
Genesis 1King James Version (KJV)
"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
I see what you mean. It seems that in V:7 that there was indeed waters both above and below the firmament which He called Heaven.