A "Deep" Question

[Deeje]

You mentioned assumptions then went on ahead with yours. First you assume God created everything and he created it ex nihlo.

So you don't believe that God created everything? And you don't believe that he can create matter?

Why are you asking questions about it then?

I fail to see how Genesis1:26 shows that Jesus created everything.

Who was God speaking to in Genesis 1:26? "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,"

At Proverbs 8: 22-31, as wisdom personified.....God's own son was produced as the "beginning" of God's creation...his "firstborn". (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15)

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
For the one who finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men."

Working at his Father's side, he was the one "through" whom all creation was established.

Speaking of Jesus as the Logos, John 1:2-3 says....."This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence"

The canopy? The firmament separated the waters from above from the waters below and God put the sun, moon and stars there, Genesis1:14-19. We tend to call that outer space. We have earth, firmament and heaven. Since the fimament separated the waters, that puts the waters above in heaven.

Heaven has three different (main) meanings in the Bible as mentioned previously. You are confusing them.

The water canopy suspended above the earth at creation was used by God in the flood of Noah's day. It didn't come from outer space. It fell from the sky as rain.

This is the separating of the waters above the firmament (heaven where the birds fly) and the waters on the earth that God made into oceans and seas. Isn't that obvious?

2 Peter 3: 3-7.....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

God made the already created heavenly bodies visible in the sky. Earth's inhabitants knew nothing beyond the sky. All they knew is that the sun dominated the day and the moon at night, along with millions of stars visible to the naked eye and God put them there. Genesis is a simple explanation to unscientific people about how he accomplished actions that were beyond their comprehension.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So you don't believe that God created everything? And you don't believe that he can create matter?

Why are you asking questions about it then?



Who was God speaking to in Genesis 1:26? "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,"

At Proverbs 8: 22-31, as wisdom personified.....God's own son was produced as the "beginning" of God's creation...his "firstborn". (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15)

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
For the one who finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men."

Working at his Father's side, he was the one "through" whom all creation was established.

Speaking of Jesus as the Logos, John 1:2-3 says....."This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence"



Heaven has three different (main) meanings in the Bible as mentioned previously. You are confusing them.

The water canopy suspended above the earth at creation was used by God in the flood of Noah's day. It didn't come from outer space. It fell from the sky as rain.

This is the separating of the waters above the firmament (heaven where the birds fly) and the waters on the earth that God made into oceans and seas. Isn't that obvious?

2 Peter 3: 3-7.....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

God made the already created heavenly bodies visible in the sky. Earth's inhabitants knew nothing beyond the sky. All they knew is that the sun dominated the day and the moon at night, along with millions of stars visible to the naked eye and God put them there. Genesis is a simple explanation to unscientific people about how he accomplished actions that were beyond their comprehension.

I sorry. These things are just far too afield of the op for me to want to purse them in this thread. Maybe another time.

Your posts have so many avenues to hash out that I fear I might need an eternity to flesh out and put them into the narrative of verses 1 and 2. I also see a pattern of simple questions being answered with heaps of topics; some relevant, some not; some correct according to the narrative, some, well....

 

[WalterTrull]

Sheesh. I'm just trying to figure out how the deep got there and where it existed...

'Tis folly I presume, yet, once more unto the breach.
The deep, the boundless, nontemporal, ocean of mind. Great beasts can rise from the depths when darkness is upon the face of the waters. Shine on light, shine on.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

'Tis folly I presume, yet, once more unto the breach.
The deep, the boundless, nontemporal, ocean of mind. Great beasts can rise from the depths when darkness is upon the face of the waters. Shine on light, shine on.

Your own prose?

 

[WalterTrull]

Your own prose?

Other than the Shakespeare

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Other than the Shakespeare

A great theologian.

 

[sealchan]

So this a view that verse 1 is an introduction. In verse two then God starts the process with what's already there. Yet the deep had a surface which means it wasn't formless. What was on the side that wasn't water?

And I still have a problem with finding three heavens if verse 1 is just an intro.

I think that it should be read as the author's best stab (imagination, other mythic tradition) at what it was like at the beginning. To analyze it further is to question the artistic license or scientific knowledge of the author.

I haven't read the thread thoroughly enough to know what you mean by the three heavens.

I would read Genesis 1:1-2 as an initial state of affairs. The fact that we can logically pick it apart only indicates that we have a superior capability of abstraction and a much longer history of scientific perspective to apply to an initial state of the Universe of that of the author who was, at least, writing to an audience who could fathom the image used.

The heavens are not developed at all after verse 1 it would seem, but it may be that the space which one would imply is around the waters that God hovered over are the heavens. We have to be aware that at the time this was written it may have been assumed that God's creation was an extensive plain of sorts and the Universe as it took shape did so out of this initial plain configuration.

The problems that anyone writing about such things encounters is the endless self-referencing issue of trying to describe things before things existed. Try, for instance, to talk about time before the clock started to tick... We should cut the author some slack for this reason alone.

 

[sealchan]

I assume you are talking about the Genesis account of creation, here it is;

Genesis 1King James Version (KJV)

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

I see what you mean. It seems that in V:7 that there was indeed waters both above and below the firmament which He called Heaven.

Yes, so does that mean when it rains, God and all the angels get wet?

 

[WalterTrull]

A great theologian.

Sometimes I think he had more than a clue "All the world's a stage..."

 

[Deeje]

I sorry. These things are just far too afield of the op for me to want to purse them in this thread. Maybe another time.

Really? I have to wonder if there is some kind of comprehension problem here. The Bible is one story, recorded by many secretaries.....so when you ask a question about one part of the story, it is often answered in other 'chapters', as you would expect of a book with one author.

"Another time" will not make any difference by the look of your responses. If you cannot take in things beyond your ability to process them, there is no point discussing them. I have been teaching the Bible for 45 years, so my apologies for not being above to teach you anything beyond what you want to believe.

Your posts have so many avenues to hash out that I fear I might need an eternity to flesh out and put them into the narrative of verses 1 and 2. I also see a pattern of simple questions being answered with heaps of topics; some relevant, some not; some correct according to the narrative, some, well....

As I see it, there seems to be difficulty correlating the other parts of the Bible to add knowledge to your first question. I offer you something that takes you out of your chosen interpretation of the Genesis account (which is very strange IMO) and this apparently takes you to places that you do not wish to go. Overthinking the small stuff can make you miss the big picture entirely.

I don't know how much I can 'dumb down' the narrative so that you don't feel as if you are being taken down a rabbit hole every time another part of the Bible is offered in explanation.

I tried....no point in continuing.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Really? I have to wonder if there is some kind of comprehension problem here. The Bible is one story, recorded by many secretaries.....so when you ask a question about one part of the story, it is often answered in other 'chapters', as you would expect of a book with one author.

"Another time" will not make any difference by the look of your responses. If you cannot take in things beyond your ability to process them, there is no point discussing them. I have been teaching the Bible for 45 years, so my apologies for not being above to teach you anything beyond what you want to believe.



As I see it, there seems to be difficulty correlating the other parts of the Bible to add knowledge to your first question. I offer you something that takes you out of your chosen interpretation of the Genesis account (which is very strange IMO) and this apparently takes you to places that you do not wish to go. Overthinking the small stuff can make you miss the big picture entirely.

I don't know how much I can 'dumb down' the narrative so that you don't feel as if you are being taken down a rabbit hole every time another part of the Bible is offered in explanation.

I tried....no point in continuing.

I can answer every point you bring up. I've done so with some of them to point out either their errancy or irrelevance. Each time I'm answered with more errancy and irrelevance. So, your right teach, there's no point in continuing down your rabbit holes. Have a good day.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Yes, so does that mean when it rains, God and all the angels get wet?

You might be all wet.

 

[David1967]

I see a lot of assumptions getting in the way on this thread. I just read what the Bible says and try to visualise what is being said.

"In the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 has to mean the beginning of material creation. In this instance, the "beginning" of the universe...."the heavens and the earth".

The word "heavens" has different meanings dependent on the context.
1) It can mean the sky where the birds fly, or....
2) it can mean the place where the heavenly bodies are seen...
3) it can mean the invisible realm where God and his angels reside. It has the connotation of something high and lofty....."up there".

The word "beginning" can also be confusing....e.g. Jesus is said to be "the beginning of the creation by God" (Revelation 3:14) Since Jesus was present at the creation of material things, (Genesis 1:26) the "beginning of God's creation" obviously means that his creation also extends to the spiritual realm.

Reading the account with a visual image of God creating the universe in one colossal act (the Big Bang) helps us to read the rest of the account accordingly. Since water is mentioned at the outset, it is apparent that the whole planet was at first completely covered in water (created that way) and that God separated the waters to become a canopy above the atmosphere, creating the "heavens" below it where birds fly and where our life sustaining oxygen is trapped, (thankfully) and the waters on the surface of the planet where God eventually made dry land come up. No longer formless or void, earth began to be prepared to host life.

When people start imagining all sorts of other things, then I can't understand where all those things come from. I try to visualise what they mean but I guess they read the words differently to me.

Thanks Deeje!

 

[David1967]

Yes, so does that mean when it rains, God and all the angels get wet?

No silly. God is Spirit so the rain goes right through him, and the angels have wings to cover their heads.

 

[sealchan]

As a foundation of inquiry, yes I make the assumption there are no inconsistencies.

And I hear you on the earth side of things. Except the earth appeared out of the waters and was named on the third day.

Then you rule out a likely possibility that the author was incapable of inconsistency. Just like most movies have plot holes, why wouldn't this story? And besides disproving the infallibility of the Bible, which should be evident to

No silly. God is Spirit so the rain goes right through him, and the angels have wings to cover their heads.

Well it is interesting if the author thought of heaven as the space between where the clouds would rain down water on the earth and the oceans...that makes heaven a rather intimate space in which we ourselves walk!

 

[David1967]

Then you rule out a likely possibility that the author was incapable of inconsistency. Just like most movies have plot holes, why wouldn't this story? And besides disproving the infallibility of the Bible, which should be evident to


Well it is interesting if the author thought of heaven as the space between where the clouds would rain down water on the earth and the oceans...that makes heaven a rather intimate space in which we ourselves walk!

You know I'm joking, right?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Then you rule out a likely possibility that the author was incapable of inconsistency.

Did you mean the author was capable of inconsistency.
I'm exploring the possibility that the author wasn't. That means not coming to a seeming inconsistency and saying there it is, my work is done here.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Really? I have to wonder if there is some kind of comprehension problem here. The Bible is one story, recorded by many secretaries.....so when you ask a question about one part of the story, it is often answered in other 'chapters', as you would expect of a book with one author.

"Another time" will not make any difference by the look of your responses. If you cannot take in things beyond your ability to process them, there is no point discussing them. I have been teaching the Bible for 45 years, so my apologies for not being above to teach you anything beyond what you want to believe.



As I see it, there seems to be difficulty correlating the other parts of the Bible to add knowledge to your first question. I offer you something that takes you out of your chosen interpretation of the Genesis account (which is very strange IMO) and this apparently takes you to places that you do not wish to go. Overthinking the small stuff can make you miss the big picture entirely.

I don't know how much I can 'dumb down' the narrative so that you don't feel as if you are being taken down a rabbit hole every time another part of the Bible is offered in explanation.

I tried....no point in continuing.

Forgive my stupidity and slowness but I've just realized something.
In your 45 years of teaching you've apparently read Clarence Larkin's book "Dispesational Truth?"

 

[sealchan]

You know I'm joking, right?

I understood that you were joking, yes.

 

[sealchan]

Did you mean the author was capable of inconsistency.
I'm exploring the possibility that the author wasn't. That means not coming to a seeming inconsistency and saying there it is, my work is done here.

That is a good approach and for the record I am enjoying your meticulous look at Genesis 1. I find it very enlightening.

The inconsistencies of the story provide information about the limitations of the author. But we also have our scientific knowledge to show us that in a more direct way. Still I should be the last person to criticize anyone for wanting to hold the text up to the light of logical consistency. Still there is such thing as beating a dead horse...

I hope you continue with more questions in this area.