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A definition of "determinism"

Skwim

Veteran Member
First of all, we need to clarify that distinction between cause and effect is conventional. There is no true and ultimate borderline between them. They are one reality.
Don't know what your definition of reality is, but of those I'm aware of this makes no sense. And if you can't differentiate between cause and effect then I see no sense in continuing.

Our ability to separate certain properties, give them existence and importance, is our way of controlling things.
Drivel

By knowing details about something, we can modify it to get expected results.
More drivel.

Of course it's determined, and this determination is done through our experience, out of which comes purpose. Without purpose, there is no point of changing anything.
In other words, if you have no purpose, there is no reason to change anything, so there is no need for will. It becomes totally meaningless.
This implies that "will" must be conditioned by definition, thus it cannot be free. Illusion is born, when reasons behind our actions comes from sources that we are not aware of.

Now, the interesting part. What are the consequences of our view on this very subject? Huge!
But can we do anything about it?
To know that, we need to know where do we get our views from?

We try to figure out how things work, based on experiences that we have, and knowledge that was given to us. There are three sources feeding our experience: Thoughts, feelings, and sensory input. All three are unknown, although predictable to some degree (you may think that you control your thoughts for sure, but try to suppress them, and you will see that It will costs effort not to think). We operate on those three by imposing our intention onto them. We can either, try to suppress them, or allow them to manifest. We do it unconsciously (habits), and consciously (views).

People don't have free will... they have views, and views makes us homo sapiens.
Afraid we're on two very different pages here. Have a good day.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Quantum physics is an irreducibly statistical theory that purports to describe the dynamics of all physical systems at any level, while classical physics isn't a theory but an outdated, incorrect framework for the dynamics of physical systems that we keep around because it is useful and significantly simpler than quantum physics. Determinism is a philosophical perspective:
"Determinism is the philosophical conception and claim that every physical event and every instance of human cognition, volition, and action is causally determined by a continual, uninterrupted sequence of prior events." (italics in original)
from the introduction to Ciprut, JV. (Ed.). (2008). Indeterminacy: The Mapped, the Navigable, and the Uncharted. MIT Press.

This philosophical perspective arose due to the success of classical physics when it was just "physics", and in particular classical (Newtonian) mechanics:
"In physics, the deterministic view developed along with the experimental approach to research, in the sense that phenomena are reproducible under the same unchanged external conditions, implying that the same cause leads to the same consequences under the same conditions...Isaac Newton was the first to lay down the complete basis of classical mechanics, which at the time was considered to be the origin of all physical phenomena...With the rise and development of classical mechanics the view of determinism developed, with the opinion that all natural laws can be described by dynamical equations, either ordinary differential equations (as, for example, in celestial mechanics) or partial differential equations (as, for example, in the dynamics of fluids). In each case precise knowledge of the initial conditions (all positions and all velocities) completely determines the entire future and entire past of the system. When pushed to its extremum, this view implies complete deterministic evolution of the entire universe, including all its smallest and largest details." (emphases added).
From the entry "determinism" in Scott, A. (Ed.). (2005). Encyclopedia of Nonlinear Science. Routledge.

Determinism is not and was never an empirically tested (or derived) theory or component of science, and what empirical evidence existed that it was a correct philosophical perspective existed in the deterministic nature of classical physics (and basically died with it).

"The world most probably is indeterministic, meaning that there are particular events which lack a sufficient cause. Once we grant that there are such events, and that at least some of them are caused, we then require an account of causation that gives the conditions in which they are to count as caused. This is the problem of indeterministic causality. Providing for indeterministic causality has been a major motivation for the development of probabilistic accounts of causation." (italics in original)
from the introduction to Dowe, P., & Noordhof, P. (Eds.). Cause and Chance: Causation in an Indeterministic World. Routledge.

Insofar as determinism means every event is caused by prior events, special relativity renders determinism obsolete all by itself. "Prior" here loses any meaning, as special relativity tells us simultaneity is relative and time itself is not linear except within a subjective reference frame (technically, special relativity holds that time doesn't exist at all, but whether or not the 4-dimensional description of spacetime is ontological is debated). Also, classical mechanics fails to approximate the macroscopic deterministically because even though models of systems in classical physics are deterministic, how some set of variables determines the values of others in such models often depends upon purely arbitrary decision. Complexity and nonlinearity render impossible the ontological determinacy of classical mechanics and classical physics more generally, because despite the deterministic evolution of a system, in order to derive the determined result we have to choose in advance and in complex cases without justification what is going to determine what (by "without justification" I mean that we could pick other variables and accurately determine the evolution of the same system).

The problem determinism always faced was the relative failure of physics in general to describe living systems. The "laws" of classical mechanics were all about external forces acting on bodies and removed from the beginning the possibility for a system to "self-determine". We now know that living systems are qualitatively (not quantitatively) more complex and self-organized than are even self-organizing non-living systems. We also know that complex system exhibit nonlocal (and hence inherently indeterministic) emergent structures. And of course quantum physics makes determinism impossible. What we don't know is whether weaker forms of epistemic determinism sufficiently approximate something like (a form of) ontological determinism so as to justify claims that emergent processes and structures either have no causal power (i.e., causation can't be top-down) and that any causal nonlinearities are sufficiently localized such that a system's evolution is unchangeable under reasonable enough time-scales.

Perhaps the most important and frequent area in which this is investigated and debated is that of mental causation- the idea that emergent (and possibly non-physical) mental states have causal power such that if I choose to do x, the mental state that caused this is closed to efficient causation (it is a process or function that emerges from the brain but is not reducible to the physics governing neuronal dynamics). Currently, the main reason for thinking this might be correct is the influence of late 18th and 19th century perspectives that were themselves byproducts of a scientific framework we now know is wrong.
Wow, some very potent points. I liked that. It was not funny at all, but I liked it.

Insofar as determinism means every event is caused by prior events, special relativity renders determinism obsolete all by itself. "Prior" here loses any meaning, as special relativity tells us simultaneity is relative and time itself is not linear except within a subjective reference frame (technically, special relativity holds that time doesn't exist at all, but whether or not the 4-dimensional description of spacetime is ontological is debated).
That was my favorite part.

If only we could determinism whether spacetime were ontological!
 
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