A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

cataway · Feb 10, 2020

I Am … and you have a problem with that ?

coconut theology · Feb 10, 2020

cataway said:
I Am … and you have a problem with that ?

Asked and answered - A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

coconut theology · Feb 11, 2020

Here are some of the most feared texts by WTS/JW in the OT:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
Hos 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

coconut theology · Feb 14, 2020

coconut theology said:
Here are some of the most feared texts by WTS/JW in the OT: ...

Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
Hos 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. ...

Let's look at Hosea 1:4-7,

Hosea 1:4 KJB - And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

Hosea 1:5 KJB - And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

Hosea 1:6 KJB - And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

Hosea 1:7 KJB - But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

I will even cite them from the NWT for the WTS, Jehovah Witnesses reading:

Hosea 1:4-7 NWT - 4 Then Jehovah said to him: “Name him Jezʹre·el,* for in a little while I will hold an accounting against the house of Jeʹhui for the acts of bloodshed of Jezʹre·el, and I will put an end to the royal rule of the house of Israel.j 5 In that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley* of Jezʹre·el.” 6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And He told him: “Name her Lo-ru·haʹmah,* for I will no longer show mercyk to the house of Israel, because I will certainly drive them away.l 7 But I will show mercy to the house of Judah,m and I will save them by Jehovah their God;n I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”o - [NWT]

Sidenote: In the NWT reference 'bible', in vs 6, "He" "He - Jehovah."

The Hebrew OT:

Hosea 1:4 HOT - ויאמר יהוה אליו קרא שׁמו יזרעאל כי־עוד מעט ופקדתי את־דמי יזרעאל על־בית יהוא והשׁבתי ממלכות בית ישׂראל׃

Hosea 1:5 HOT - והיה ביום ההוא ושׁברתי את־קשׁת ישׂראל בעמק יזרעאל׃

Hosea 1:6 HOT - ותהר עוד ותלד בת ויאמר לו קרא שׁמה לא רחמה כי לא אוסיף עוד ארחם את־בית ישׂראל כי־נשׂא אשׂא להם׃

Hosea 1:7 HOT - ואת־בית יהודה ארחם והושׁעתים ביהוה אלהיהם ולא אושׁיעם בקשׁת ובחרב ובמלחמה בסוסים ובפרשׁים׃

The Hebrew OT Translit.:

Hosea 1:4 HOT Translit. - waYomer y'hwäh ëläyw q'rä sh'mô yiz'r'el Kiy-ôd m'a† ûfäqad'Tiy et-D'mëy yiz'r'el al-Bëyt yëhû w'hish'BaTiy mam'l'khût Bëyt yis'räël

Hosea 1:5 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh BaYôm hahû w'shävar'Tiy et-qeshet yis'räël B'ëmeq yiz'r'el

Hosea 1:6 HOT Translit. - waTahar ôd waTëled Bat waYomer lô q'rä sh'mäH lo ruchämäh Kiy lo ôšiyf ôd árachëm et-Bëyt yis'räël Kiy-näso eSä lähem

Hosea 1:7 HOT Translit. - w'et-Bëyt y'hûdäh árachëm w'hôsha'Tiym Bayhwäh élohëyhem w'lo ôshiyëm B'qeshet ûv'cherev ûv'mil'chämäh B'šûšiym ûv'färäshiym

Septuaginta [*so-called] -

Hosea 1:4 LXX* - καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς αὐτόν Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ιεζραελ, διότι ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ἐκδικήσω τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ιεζραελ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ιου καὶ καταπαύσω βασιλείαν οἴκου Ισραηλ·

Hosea 1:5 LXX* - ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ συντρίψω τὸ τόξον τοῦ Ισραηλ ἐν τῇ κοιλάδι τοῦ Ιεζραελ. --

Hosea 1:6 LXX* - καὶ συνέλαβεν ἔτι καὶ ἔτεκεν θυγατέρα. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Οὐκ--ἠλεημένη, διότι οὐ μὴ προσθήσω ἔτι ἐλεῆσαι τὸν οἶκον τοῦ Ισραηλ, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ἀντιτασσόμενος ἀντιτάξομαι αὐτοῖς.

Hosea 1:7 LXX* - τοὺς δὲ υἱοὺς Ιουδα ἐλεήσω καὶ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν κυρίῳ θεῷ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν τόξῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ οὐδὲ ἐν πολέμῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ἅρμασιν οὐδὲ ἐν ἵπποις οὐδὲ ἐν ἱππεῦσιν. --

How many JEHOVAH are in those verses [4,6,7]?

JEHOVAH said, "... I ["JEHOVAH ... God", vs. 4,6] will save them by JEHOVAH their God [vs. 7], ..."

Two Persons/Beings, both identified as JEHOVAH Elohiym or LORD God. The First JEHOVAH God is saving Israel by another (the Second) JEHOVAH God.

kjw47 · Feb 14, 2020

coconut theology said:
So is:

Gen_17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Of course Jesus was there before Abraham. He is --The FIRSTBORN of all creation( created)Coll 1:15)

The bible speaks of the real Jesus. Few know him.

coconut theology · Feb 14, 2020

kjw47 said:
Of course Jesus was there before Abraham. He is --The FIRSTBORN of all creation( created)Coll 1:15)

The bible speaks of the real Jesus. Few know him.

Why do you not address what was stated in those texts, instead of attempting to go to another text? Let's look at the text you brought up, while you ignored the others I brought up (which states that Jesus did not merely exist prior to Abraham, as with beginning, as the koine Greek, which relates back to the OT passages as cited, shows that the existence of Jesus was from eternity; as the I AM is ever-existing one).

Now to the distraction brought up, instead of dealing with the texts I cited:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Here the NWT has to alter the text from the koine Greek, in several ways. First the WTS has to change "the firstborn of every creature", to the following, and adding the word "other" four times (no where present in the koine Greek text, or in any MSS on earth), and even more than this, does not place that word "other" in any italics showing that it is deliberately added to the text without textual (mss) evidence to do so:

Colossians 1:15-18 NWT 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,m the firstborn of all creation;n 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,q and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation.r He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,s so that he might become the one who is first in all things; - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/

Ask any WTS/JW member to give a single mss, etc for the word "other" in those four places, and they will not give one single instance of evidence of a single mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc., in any language in the world, with the word "other" in Colossians 1:16, other than as found in "addition" (as one WTS/JW has stated) in the NWT, by the WTS.

Even scripture in other places demonstrates that it was through the Son, that "all things", and not "all other things" were created:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Which places the Son, outside, above, and beyond created "things". This is why the NWT has to also alter Ephesians 3:9 in this place also. They will of course complain at this point that the words "by Jesus Christ" is not in the 'oldest mss', but this here is a half truth, since the material referred to are Codex Aleph (Sinaiticus; desert), Codex B (Vaticanus; secret chambers) (Matthew 24:26), and Jerome's Latin Vulgate (a corruption of the real vulgate, the Vetus Latina), all Catholic materials, and a few other Alexandrian papyrii (more details as needful, as the words are in the "MAJORITY", and many other mss, all demonstrable upon request).

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning (“εστιν αρχη”; which means "being first/chief", "being head over all", as an Head is the beginning of a body), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.” The context of Colossians, is that the Son is eternal, and "before all things", and compares Himself, their (the things) Creator, to those "things:" (creation). In Colossians, The Son, is not in the same category as those "things" which are created. Instead, the Son is their (the created things) "Head", being their Creator (at request of the Father; Genesis 1; Hebrews 1:1-3, Proverbs 8, etc).

Additionally, no created being, no being that ever came into existence [by birth, or any process, etc], can be "the express image of his [the Father's] person". Why? Think about this. For the "express image" is actually mirroring eternal Deity (the Father). Secondly, it teaches Jesus to be the "visible" [manifested, revealed, see 1 John 1:1-3 KJB, He is the "eternal life" that is "with" the "Father"; John 1:1-3 KJB, are saying the same, that the "word" was "with" the "Father", and let there be "Light" is the manifestation of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 KJB] JEHOVAH, while the Father is the "invisible" (not presently seen) JEHOVAH (though men have seen the Father, Daniel, John, etc). None but Jesus JEHOVAH, could save mankind "by himself" (Hebrews 1:3). Catch this. He did this "alone" [Isaiah 63:3 KJB] He was forsaken of the Father, and the Holy Spirit [My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me …' [Psalms 22 KJB], etc], angels, and man [".... and of the people there was none with him ..."], because of our sins which He took. "Alone" with the weight of all the world of sin. "Alone" ... let that sink in. No creature, no being that ever came into existence, could ever do that, and in fact, your own sins, and mine own sins alone would crush us, would crush any other being that came into existence, angel or not, let alone others sins added to it, but yet He took it all upon Himself, "alone"; think of the Almighty strength to bear the sin of a whole world. The Person/Being of the Son (aka Jesus) is "I AM" from the eternal past, along "with" the Person/Being of the Father (John 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3; Hebrews 7:3; Psalms 45:6, 90:2, 93:2, 102:12,24-27; Lamentations 5:19; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 1:1-3,8-12, 13:4-8, etc) (The Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit will be addressed elsewhere).

coconut theology · Feb 14, 2020

kjw47 said:
Of course Jesus was there before Abraham. He is --The FIRSTBORN of all creation( created)Coll 1:15)

The bible speaks of the real Jesus. Few know him.

What does "firstborn" mean if it doesn't mean "first created"?

[12-A] Firstborn?

The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in other words “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

coconut theology · Feb 14, 2020

kjw47 said:
Of course Jesus was there before Abraham. He is --The FIRSTBORN of all creation( created)Coll 1:15)

The bible speaks of the real Jesus. Few know him.

Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created using that “firstborn” text?

They cannot, unless they have a hardened apriori that they refuse to let go of. The Son (God; Deity) came to be manifested in the fallen (sinful) flesh of mankind (1 Timothy 3:16; Romans 8:3, etc), and thus took upon Himself that which was 'created', namely the nature of fallen mankind, as it is written:

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Therefore, Jesus (the Son) can be the "firstborn of all creation" (referring to Genesis creation), as it is to this Creation, this world that this phrase applies. Other worlds were already in existence, with unfallen beings on them. The created human nature of Christ is not Lord over them, as they are not of the flesh of mankind (Adam), but another flesh (1 Corinthians 15:38-41), but yet His eternal Deity nature is (Philippians 2:6), as He created those worlds (at the request of the eternal Father, as an obedient eternal Son) also before this world was ever created (Job 38:7; Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Revelation 12:12; Luke 15:6-7, etc). Jesus is also "firstborn of the dead" (not the actual first to be resurrected, for that was Moses; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9; Deuteronomy 34:6, etc), meaning, all others find their resurrection in His (Jesus) resurrection (even though He was not actual first to be resurrected in time). If Jesus did not fulfill His promise of being resurrected, Moses could not have been resurrected beforehand, and would have to return to earth and die, but thanks be to God, that the end is seen from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10).

coconut theology · Feb 17, 2020

coconut theology said:
Here are some of the most feared texts by WTS/JW in the OT:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. ...

WTS/JW members like to say to me that Jesus (the Person/being of the Son of the Father) is never called "the Almighty God" anywhere in scripture, and yet Genesis 17:1 is stating that the Person/Being that actually came down from Heaven, and stood on earth, and talked face to face with Abraham, is "the Almighty God", which can only be one Person/Being, and it is not the Father. The context tells us that it is the Son (demonstrable upon request).

What do WTS/JW do with this text? They attempt several things, one of which is to say that it was only a vision, and that no person/being stood on earth next to Abraham, all the while denying the very context of the passage itself. There are other ways they attempt to go around this text, but each fails in the face of what the texts therein reads.

When all else fails, and all points of the WTS/JW are refuted, what happens next? They walk away, silent, and will place an "X" on your house (not literally) to not come by there, or to send others there.

In effect, what the WTS/JW really "shun" - is Truth.

kjw47 · Feb 20, 2020

coconut theology said:
Why do you not address what was stated in those texts, instead of attempting to go to another text? Let's look at the text you brought up, while you ignored the others I brought up (which states that Jesus did not merely exist prior to Abraham, as with beginning, as the koine Greek, which relates back to the OT passages as cited, shows that the existence of Jesus was from eternity; as the I AM is ever-existing one).

Now to the distraction brought up, instead of dealing with the texts I cited:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Here the NWT has to alter the text from the koine Greek, in several ways. First the WTS has to change "the firstborn of every creature", to the following, and adding the word "other" four times (no where present in the koine Greek text, or in any MSS on earth), and even more than this, does not place that word "other" in any italics showing that it is deliberately added to the text without textual (mss) evidence to do so:

Colossians 1:15-18 NWT 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,m the firstborn of all creation;n 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,o whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through himp and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,q and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation.r He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,s so that he might become the one who is first in all things; - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/colossians/1/

Ask any WTS/JW member to give a single mss, etc for the word "other" in those four places, and they will not give one single instance of evidence of a single mss, papyri, codice, palimpsest, etc., in any language in the world, with the word "other" in Colossians 1:16, other than as found in "addition" (as one WTS/JW has stated) in the NWT, by the WTS.

Even scripture in other places demonstrates that it was through the Son, that "all things", and not "all other things" were created:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Which places the Son, outside, above, and beyond created "things". This is why the NWT has to also alter Ephesians 3:9 in this place also. They will of course complain at this point that the words "by Jesus Christ" is not in the 'oldest mss', but this here is a half truth, since the material referred to are Codex Aleph (Sinaiticus; desert), Codex B (Vaticanus; secret chambers) (Matthew 24:26), and Jerome's Latin Vulgate (a corruption of the real vulgate, the Vetus Latina), all Catholic materials, and a few other Alexandrian papyrii (more details as needful, as the words are in the "MAJORITY", and many other mss, all demonstrable upon request).

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning (“εστιν αρχη”; which means "being first/chief", "being head over all", as an Head is the beginning of a body), the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.” The context of Colossians, is that the Son is eternal, and "before all things", and compares Himself, their (the things) Creator, to those "things:" (creation). In Colossians, The Son, is not in the same category as those "things" which are created. Instead, the Son is their (the created things) "Head", being their Creator (at request of the Father; Genesis 1; Hebrews 1:1-3, Proverbs 8, etc).

Additionally, no created being, no being that ever came into existence [by birth, or any process, etc], can be "the express image of his [the Father's] person". Why? Think about this. For the "express image" is actually mirroring eternal Deity (the Father). Secondly, it teaches Jesus to be the "visible" [manifested, revealed, see 1 John 1:1-3 KJB, He is the "eternal life" that is "with" the "Father"; John 1:1-3 KJB, are saying the same, that the "word" was "with" the "Father", and let there be "Light" is the manifestation of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 4:4-6 KJB] JEHOVAH, while the Father is the "invisible" (not presently seen) JEHOVAH (though men have seen the Father, Daniel, John, etc). None but Jesus JEHOVAH, could save mankind "by himself" (Hebrews 1:3). Catch this. He did this "alone" [Isaiah 63:3 KJB] He was forsaken of the Father, and the Holy Spirit [My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me …' [Psalms 22 KJB], etc], angels, and man [".... and of the people there was none with him ..."], because of our sins which He took. "Alone" with the weight of all the world of sin. "Alone" ... let that sink in. No creature, no being that ever came into existence, could ever do that, and in fact, your own sins, and mine own sins alone would crush us, would crush any other being that came into existence, angel or not, let alone others sins added to it, but yet He took it all upon Himself, "alone"; think of the Almighty strength to bear the sin of a whole world. The Person/Being of the Son (aka Jesus) is "I AM" from the eternal past, along "with" the Person/Being of the Father (John 1:1-3; 1 John 1:1-3; Hebrews 7:3; Psalms 45:6, 90:2, 93:2, 102:12,24-27; Lamentations 5:19; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 1:1-3,8-12, 13:4-8, etc) (The Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit will be addressed elsewhere).

Maybe one should listen to Jesus who assures all--The kingdom, power and glory all belong to the Father( alone)--The Father shares with Jesus.
Fact--Paul doesn't contradict himself--twisting makes him contradict. Like at 1Cor 8:6--He assures all--only the Father is God--2Cor 11:12-15--Where Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself= forever.

kjw47 · Feb 20, 2020

coconut theology said:
What does "firstborn" mean if it doesn't mean "first created"?

[12-A] Firstborn?

The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in other words “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

Jesus = Gods master worker of Proverbs 8--It is him speaking. He explains that it was difficult for God to create him DIRECT. He wasn't named Jesus at Prov 8. It is not YHWH speaking at Prov 8.

sooda · Feb 20, 2020

coconut theology said:
What does "firstborn" mean if it doesn't mean "first created"?

[12-A] Firstborn?

The WTS [Watch Tower & Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witness's organization] will often quote Colossians 1:15, and ask. “How can Jesus be God, since Jesus is called the 'firstborn of every creature'?” They incorrectly teach that Jesus is the 'first created' who created all [other] things, see their NWT [New World Translation].

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.

Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.

Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.

Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.

Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.

Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.

Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.

Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in other words “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

Hosea 11:1 is about Israel not Jesus. Keep in mind the rivalry between Judea and Israel. Israel (Ephraim) was more prosperous and Judea despised them as Hellenized half breeds.. Judea is always bad mouthing Israel in scripture.

kjw47 · Feb 20, 2020

coconut theology said:
Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created using that “firstborn” text?

They cannot, unless they have a hardened apriori that they refuse to let go of. The Son (God; Deity) came to be manifested in the fallen (sinful) flesh of mankind (1 Timothy 3:16; Romans 8:3, etc), and thus took upon Himself that which was 'created', namely the nature of fallen mankind, as it is written:

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Therefore, Jesus (the Son) can be the "firstborn of all creation" (referring to Genesis creation), as it is to this Creation, this world that this phrase applies. Other worlds were already in existence, with unfallen beings on them. The created human nature of Christ is not Lord over them, as they are not of the flesh of mankind (Adam), but another flesh (1 Corinthians 15:38-41), but yet His eternal Deity nature is (Philippians 2:6), as He created those worlds (at the request of the eternal Father, as an obedient eternal Son) also before this world was ever created (Job 38:7; Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Revelation 12:12; Luke 15:6-7, etc). Jesus is also "firstborn of the dead" (not the actual first to be resurrected, for that was Moses; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9; Deuteronomy 34:6, etc), meaning, all others find their resurrection in His (Jesus) resurrection (even though He was not actual first to be resurrected in time). If Jesus did not fulfill His promise of being resurrected, Moses could not have been resurrected beforehand, and would have to return to earth and die, but thanks be to God, that the end is seen from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10).

Best to believe Jesus over lies--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
Maybe one should listen to Jesus who assures all--The kingdom, power and glory all belong to the Father( alone)--The Father shares with Jesus.
Fact--Paul doesn't contradict himself--twisting makes him contradict. Like at 1Cor 8:6--He assures all--only the Father is God--2Cor 11:12-15--Where Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself= forever.

Strawman. Who ever stated that Paul contradicts himself? Not I - ever. You made that false accusation in the place of my real and actual position, which is that scripture (KJB) cannot be broken (John 10:35), or in other words, there are no real contradictions in scripture, which I have stated on several occasions now.

coconut theology said:
There are 0 (zero, nada, zip, ziltch, nuthin', none, no, bubkiss) actual contradictions in the inspired and preserved (Psalms 12:6-7) word of God, in the English, being the King James Bible.

coconut theology said:
[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

So, you simply made up a false position, which never represented my actual position, then attacked your own false position, which was never my position, and then attempt to strut around in it.

It was false.

Secondly, never did I say that that the Father doesn't share His eternal throne, with the Son, who Himself (Son) is also Deity (nature) and eternal as the Father (sources already cited, which you simply ignored and did not respond to yet in any meaningful way - A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist ). The Father and Son are two persons/beings, that sit upon the same eternal Throne, as it is written:

Reality:

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Typology:

Gen_41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

1 Corinthians 8:6,

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This text does not state that the Father is God only. It is in context of the many false gods, vs 5,7:

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

In fact, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is actually citing Deuteronomy 6:4, in expansion in the light of the revelation of Jesus Christ,

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

I shall come to this more in a bit. Yet. carefully read, Paul is identifying at least two Persons/Beings within Deuteronomy 6:4, in his citation in 1 Corinthians 8:6. More on this in a bit in some detail.

Also, the reference you gave of 2 Cor 11:12-15 is incorrect in the context in which you cited it. The verses you meant to cite are actually, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Wherein, did I ever say I disagreed with it, or that the theology that Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father, disagree with it? You will find that nowhere in any of my responses on this or any forum. Again, you gave the strawman of my actual position, and again refused to deal with the texts I provided in detail. You are simply hoping that another text with bail out the false theology of the WTS/JW.

Of course the Son is subject to the Father. Always has been, always will be, even now. See the 5th Commandment.

kjw47 said:
Jesus = Gods master worker of Proverbs 8--It is him speaking. He explains that it was difficult for God to create him DIRECT. He wasn't named Jesus at Prov 8. It is not YHWH speaking at Prov 8.

The WTS/JW have a notoriously bad translation of Proverbs 8, and this I shall deal with in separate responses, demonstrating that eternal relationship between the Persons/Beings of the Father and of the Son, in Proverbs 8. The word used in associated with "wisdom" does not mean created there. This will be demonstrated shortly in thorough detail. It will be unanswerable. It will simply cause the WTS/JW to go into apoplexy and begin saying things that do not make sense.

kjw47 said:
Best to believe Jesus over lies--John 20:17, Rev 3:12

Where in any of my responses are "lies"? Please provide the exact citation with demonstration, otherwise, you have another false accusation on your record against you, written in Heaven.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Of course, Jesus' Father is His "God", and of course the Father is also God of the Jews (but so also is the Son; in all the texts I already cited which you did not properly address yet). The Son, took upon Himself, fallen flesh nature (which WTS/JW deny) as mankind, and was/is the example for mankind (1 Peter 2:21), and was/is not an "atheist", but a believing member of the tribe of Judah. The theology of the WTS/JW has to make others theology into either the false theology of Roman Trinitarianism, or the equally false Unitarianism - neither of which are my position, neither the position of the true Seventh-day Adventist. The true position is Godhead, as expounded in several posts now.

Again, you as a member of the WTS/JW have to misrepresent our position by placing yet another strawman upon the field and knocking it over. If that is what you need to do, by all means, but it will never actually address my real position, which remains to be addressed in any meaningful way.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Again, this simply shows that the WTS/JW doesn't understand the position taken by real Bible believers. The Son is now also eternally a man (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:13,18, 2:8, 5:5, 14:14, etc) and thus worships His Father as "God". Also, the Son is eternally in the position of being the Son (now in two way two natures, Deity and mankind - Philippians 2, Hebrews 1, etc)

So, as a bible (KJB) believer, I believe all the texts cited and understand how they agree with all things I already presented, which can never agree with the WTS/JW theology, which is why they have to change their text (NWT), and I do not (KJB).

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

I am going to present Proverb 8 in several responses. I will provide a Table of Contents for easy searching:
Here is the Table of Contents for this post, for fast searching:

The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words

"possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

Subsection, “Wisdom” - “She”

Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

"set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

"brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

"him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539

"from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

"or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924

The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually:

Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Proverbs 8:3 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Proverbs 8:4 KJB - Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

Proverbs 8:5 KJB - O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Proverbs 8:6 KJB - Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Proverbs 8:8 KJB - All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

Proverbs 8:9 KJB - They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Proverbs 8:10 KJB - Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

Proverbs 8:11 KJB - For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

Proverbs 8:13 KJB - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Proverbs 8:14 KJB - Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Proverbs 8:15 KJB - By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Proverbs 8:16 KJB - By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 8:18 KJB - Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

Proverbs 8:19 KJB - My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

Proverbs 8:20 KJB - I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

Proverbs 8:21 KJB - That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Proverbs 8:32 KJB - Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

Proverbs 8:33 KJB - Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Proverbs 8:34 KJB - Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Proverbs 8:35 KJB - For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Proverbs 8:36 KJB - But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words:

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB are used by those teaching that the Son of God came into existence in eternity past at some unknown and incalculable [by human means of] time, and will be shown to be a false understanding of the texts themselves, which show the eternality of the Person of the Son.

Here are those texts again:

Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Here are the primary words that are pointed to by those advocating the errors [such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Arians, others and those teaching the “two beings” and “three personalities”], but they all misunderstand them, as they grieve the person/being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

"possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

קנה ; qânâh

Total KJB Occurrences: 86

buy, 24

Genesis 47:19; Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 22:11, 25:15,44-45 (2); Deuteronomy 28:68; Ruth 4:4-5 (2),8; 2 Samuel 24:21,24; 2 Kings 12:12, 22:6; 1 Chronicles 21:24; 2 Chronicles 34:11; Proverbs 23:23; Jeremiah 32:7-8 (4),25,44; Amos 8:6

bought, 21

Genesis 33:19, 39:1, 47:20,22-23 (2), 49:30, 50:13; Leviticus 25:28,30,50, 27:24; Deuteronomy 32:6; Joshua 24:32; Ruth 4:9; 2 Samuel 12:3, 24:24; 1 Kings 16:24; Nehemiah 5:16; Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 32:9,43

get, 9

Proverbs 4:5 (2),7 (2), 17:16 (3); Jeremiah 19:1 (2)

purchased, 5

Genesis 25:10; Exodus 15:16; Ruth 4:10; Psalms 74:2, 78:54

buyer, 3

Proverbs 20:14; Isaiah 24:2; Ezekiel 7:12

getteth, 3

Proverbs 15:32, 18:15, 19:8

got, 3

Ecclesiastes 2:7; Jeremiah 13:2,4

possessed, 3

Psalms 139:13; Proverbs 8:22; Jeremiah 32:15

buyest, 2

Leviticus 25:14; Ruth 4:5

possessor, 2

Genesis 14:19,22

attain, 1

Proverbs 1:5

cattle, 1

Zechariah 13:5 (2)

getting, 1

Proverbs 4:7

gotten, 1

Genesis 4:1

jealousy, 1

Ezekiel 8:3

keep, 1

Zechariah 13:5

owner, 1

Isaiah 1:3

possessors, 1

Zechariah 11:5

recover, 1

Isaiah 11:11

redeemed, 1

Nehemiah 5:8

verily, 1

1 Chronicles 21:24

The subject, “me”, of that which is “possessed” of “the LORD” is “wisdom” [Proverbs 8:1,11,12,14 KJB].

Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words:

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB are used by those teaching that the Son of God came into existence in eternity past at some unknown and incalculable [by human means of] time, and will be shown to be a false understanding of the texts themselves, which show the eternality of the Person of the Son.

The text of Proverbs 3:19 KJB, is in perfect parallel with Proverbs 8:22,30 KJB, in that the Father “by Jesus” made all things:

1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit, for instance:

Psalms 139:13 KJB - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Joshua 21:43 KJB - And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jeremiah 32:23 - And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

John 14:10 KJB - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 14:11 KJB - Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son:

Genesis 22:8 KJB - And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 1:29 KJB - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36 KJB - And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

1 Peter 1:19 KJB - But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Samuel 12:3 KJB - But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

[Side note: Subsection, “Wisdom” - “She”:

In Proverbs 8 KJB, “wisdom”, is given in feminine terminology, “her voice” [vs. 1], “She” [vs. 2,3], “I dwell with prudence” [vs. 12] and before in the previous Proverbs:

Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? Psalms 8:1

Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Proverbs 8:32 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

“She” dwells with others:

Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

Looking back into Proverbs Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 we find that “wisdom” is again called “she”, “her” and also called “My sister”, and even “understanding” is called “kinswoman” and “instruction” called “her”, and in other passages like Psalms 85:10-13 KJB we find that “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed [each other].” - Psalms 85:10 KJB, etc:

Proverbs 1:20 KJB - Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

Proverbs 2:4 KJB - If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;

[see vs 2, “...incline thine ear unto wisdom...”]

Proverbs 3:15 KJB - She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

[see vs 13, “...findeth wisdom...”]

Proverbs 3:16 KJB - Length of days [is] in her right hand; [and] in her left hand riches and honour.

Proverbs 3:17 KJB - Her ways [are] ways of pleasantness, and all her paths [are] peace.

Proverbs 3:18 KJB - She [is] a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy [is every one] that retaineth her.

Proverbs 4:6 KJB - Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

[see vs 5, “...get wisdom...” and vs 7 “wisdom...get wisdom...”]

Proverbs 4:8 KJB - Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

Proverbs 4:9 KJB - She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

Proverbs 7:4 KJB - Say unto wisdom, Thou [art] my sister; and call understanding [thy] kinswoman:

According to the text of Proverbs 8 KJB itself, God was the one who was creating the Heavens and the Earth, and by the Scriptures themselves, we know that Christ Jesus Himself created all things by command/instruction of the Father [Isaiah 45:12; Psalms 95:5; Job 9:8; Jeremiah 10:12; John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-3 KJB], for it was by this “wisdom” that the Father is said to create, and this “wisdom” was eternally with the Father, for the “wisdom” [the Son] of God was eternally with Him [the Father]:

Wisdom is as Truth and Love [all of which Jesus is], that is to say, eternal. Such cannot be created, nor come into existence at some point in time. Such is from everlasting to everlasting, unchanging, immutable.

Job 28:12 KJB - But where shall wisdom be found? and where [is] the place of understanding?

Job 28:30 KJB - Whence then cometh wisdom? and where [is] the place of understanding?

The Father eternally possessed this “wisdom”:

Daniel 2:20 KJB - Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

Revelation 7:12 KJB - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Let us look past Proverbs 8 KJB and continue into Proverbs 9 KJB, looking at “wisdom” who hath “maidens”:

Proverbs 9:1 KJB - Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Proverbs 9:2 KJB - She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

Proverbs 9:3 KJB - She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

Proverbs 9:4 KJB - Whoso [is] simple, let him turn in hither: [as for] him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

Jesus Christ Himself, speaks on “wisdom” and “her children”:

Matthew 11:19 KJB - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 7:35 KJB - But wisdom is justified of all her children.

The Father is the “of whom” are all things, and it is the Son “by whom” are all things:

Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

[combined with...]

Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

[and yet still...]

Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.

This does not make the Son of God literally a woman, but illustrates the submissive character of relationship of Son to that of the Father, wherein the Son always honours the Father's will [Exodus 20:12; Malachi 1:6 KJB], and thus is paralleled in 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB with the words, “was unto him as a daughter”, for Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father is “wisdom”:

1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB - But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 KJB - But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Luke 11:49 KJB - Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

For Luke 11:49 KJB, see also Jeremiah 7:25, 25:4, 26:5, 29:19, 35:15, 44:4 KJB:

Proverbs 3:19 KJB - The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Psalms 104:24 KJB - O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

Psalms 136:5 KJB - To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Isaiah 45:12 KJB - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jeremiah 51:15 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.

Job 12:9 KJB - Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?

Job 12:12 KJB - With the ancient [is] wisdom; and in length of days understanding.

Job 12:13 KJB - With him [is] wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

Job 12:16 KJB - With him [is] strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver [are] his.

Colossians 2:1 KJB - For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

Colossians 2:2 KJB - That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:3 KJB - In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.]

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

[Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

John 5:39 KJB - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

So, when the Scripture says:

Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

Jeremiah 29:11 KJB - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jeremiah 29:12 KJB - Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:14 KJB - And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

King Solomon had Christ Jesus in Him:

1 Kings 3:28 KJB - And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.

Other texts, on the Everlasting Gospel, which is Christ Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, and in us:

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJB - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 2:7 KJB - But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 3:10 KJB - To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1 Timothy 3:16 KJB - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Revelation 10:7 KJB - But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

As it is written:

“... The central theme of the Bible, the theme about which every other in the whole book clusters, is the redemption plan, the restoration in the human soul of the image of God. From the first intimation of hope in the sentence pronounced in Eden to that last glorious promise of the Revelation, “They shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads” (Revelation 22:4), the burden of every book and every passage of the Bible is the unfolding of this wondrous theme,—man’s uplifting,—the power of God, “which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:57. ...” - Education, p. 125-126 - Education, Page 125 -- Ellen G. White Writings

What does it mean “to know Wisdom”:

Proverbs 1:2 KJB - To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

John 17:3 KJB - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Proverbs 1:3 KJB - To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

Luke 20:1 KJB - And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

Psalms 86:11 KJB - Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

John 8:2 KJB - And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

Isaiah 28:9 KJB - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:6 KJB - For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

Micah 4:2 KJB - And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

John 6:45 KJB - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 KJB - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Psalm 34:8 KJB - O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

Psalm 34:9 KJB - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

Psalm 34:10 KJB - The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good [thing].

Psalm 34:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psalm 34:12 KJB - What man [is he that] desireth life, [and] loveth [many] days, that he may see good?

Psalm 34:13 KJB - Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

Psalm 34:14 KJB - Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalm 34:15 KJB - The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry.

coconut theology · Feb 21, 2020

kjw47 said:
... Proverbs 8 ...

[Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

What is the Fear of the LORD?

Job 28:28 KJB - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Acts 10:35 KJB - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 15:4 KJB - Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 19:5 KJB - And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Job 13:11 KJB - Shall not his excellency make you afraid? and his dread fall upon you?

Psalms 25:12 KJB - What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

Psalms 111:10 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Psalms 112:1 KJB - Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

Psalms 128:1 KJB - [[A Song of degrees.]] Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 8:13 KJB - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Proverbs 14:2 KJB - He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.

Proverbs 14:27 KJB - The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 15:33 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

Ecclesiastes 8:12 KJB - Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJB - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Isaiah 50:10 KJB -Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

Jeremiah 5:24 KJB - Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.

Jeremiah 32:39 KJB - And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

Jeremiah 32:40 KJB - And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Malachi 1:6 KJB - A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

Malachi 2:5 KJB - My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Luke 1:50 KJB - And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Luke 23:40 KJB - But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJB - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 7:11 KJB - For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

2 Corinthians 7:15 KJB - And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Hebrews 11:7 KJB - By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Hebrews 12:28 KJB - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Luke 12:5 KJB - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Deuteronomy 4:10 KJB - Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

Deuteronomy 5:29 KJB - O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deuteronomy 6:2 KJB - That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

Deuteronomy 6:13 KJB - Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deuteronomy 6:24 KJB - And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

Deuteronomy 8:6 KJB - Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Deuteronomy 10:12 KJB - And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 17:19 KJB - And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

Deuteronomy 28:58 KJB - If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

Job 1:8 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 KJB - Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 2:3 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 28:28 KJB - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Psalms 19:9 KJB - The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Psalms 25:19 KJB - The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Psalms 33:8 KJB - Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psalms 33:18 KJB - Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalms 134:11 KJB - Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psalms 60:4 KJB - Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.

Psalms 85:9 KJB - Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.

Psalms 119:63 KJB - I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.

Psalms 147:11 KJB - The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.

Proverbs 24:21 KJB - My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

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