A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

[Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?

​

What does it mean to “despise Wisdom”:

Proverbs 1:7 KJB - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Psalms 14:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalms 53:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 30:9 KJB - Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

Isaiah 53:3 KJB - He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Proverbs 1:20 KJB - They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Isaiah 5:24 KJB - Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.​

The Precious Jewelry of God:

Proverbs 1:8 KJB - My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

Proverbs 1:9 KJB - For they [shall be] an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Proverbs 4:9 KJB - She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

Proverbs 25:12 KJB - As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

1 Peter 3:4 KJB - But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Isaiah 49:18 KJB - Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.

Ezekiel 7:20 KJB - As for the beauty of his ornament, he set it in majesty: but they made the images of their abominations and of their detestable things therein: therefore have I set it far from them.​

Seek the LORD/Wisdom while He may be found:

Proverbs 1:28 KJB - Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Isaiah 45:19 KJB - I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Isaiah 51:1 KJB - Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

Isaiah 55:6 KJB - Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Isaiah 58:2 KJB - Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

Jeremiah 29:13 KJB - And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Amos 5:4 KJB - For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Malachi 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 7:34 KJB - Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

John 7:36 KJB - What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

John 8:21 KJB - Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 12:35 KJB - Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

John 13:33 KJB - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

John 18:8 KJB - Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:​

There are some that sought to kill Him who is Wisdom, they despised Knowledge and Instruction, hateful of Prudence:

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 8:40 KJB - But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

Wisdom in the Heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory:

Proverbs 2:9 KJB - When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

Colossians 1:27 KJB - To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

Happy is the man that finds Christ:

Proverbs 3:13 KJB - Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.​

As it is written:

“... Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ’s agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,—subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death,—it is said that “His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel.” “In all their affliction He was afflicted: ... and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. ...” - Education, p. 263.1 - Education, Page 263 -- Ellen G. White Writings

“... The officers who were sent to take Jesus reported that never man spake like this man. But the reason of this was that never man lived like this man; for if he had not so lived, he could not so have spoken. His words bore with them a convincing power, because they came from a heart pure and holy, full of love and sympathy, beneficence and truth. There is eloquence beyond that of words, in the quiet, consistent life of a pure, true Christian. We shall have temptations as long as we are in this world, but instead of injuring us, they will only turn to our advantage, if resisted. The bounds are placed where Satan cannot pass. He may prepare the furnace, but instead of working injury, it will only consume the dross, and bring forth the gold of the character, purer than before the trial. ...” - Gospel Workers 1892, Page 244 - Gospel Workers 1892, Page 244 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

"set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

נסך ; nâsak

Total KJB Occurrences: 26

poured, 10

Genesis 35:14; Numbers 28:7; 2 Samuel 23:16; 2 Kings 16:13; 1 Chronicles 11:18; Isaiah 29:10; Jeremiah 19:13, 32:29, 44:19; Ezekiel 20:28​

pour, 6

Exodus 30:9; Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17-19 (3),25​

cover, 4

Exodus 25:29, 37:16; Numbers 4:7; Isaiah 30:1​

offer, 2

Hosea 9:4 (2)​

set, 2

Psalms 2:6, Pro 8:23​

melteth, 1

Isaiah 40:19​

molten, 1

Isaiah 44:10​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King:

Psalms 2:2 KJB - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Psalms 2:6 KJB - Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 2:7 KJB - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalms 2:8 KJB - Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalms 2:12 KJB - Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

"brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

חיל / חוּל ; chûl / chı̂yl

Total KJB Occurrences: 68

pain, 6

Isaiah 13:8, 26:17-18 (2); Jeremiah 30:23; Ezekiel 30:16; Micah 4:10​

formed, 5

Deuteronomy 32:18; Job 26:5,13; Psalms 90:2; Proverbs 26:10​

forth, 4

Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10, 66:8​

brought, 3

Proverbs 8:24-25 (2); Isaiah 45:10​

pained, 3

Joel 2:4-6 (3)​

calve, 2

Job 39:1; Psalms 29:9​

fall, 2

Jeremiah 23:19, 30:23​

fear, 2

1 Chronicles 16:30; Psalms 96:9​

grieved, 2

Esther 4:4; Jeremiah 5:3​

grievous, 2

Psalms 10:5; Jeremiah 23:19​

shaketh, 2

Psalms 29:8 (2)​

stayed, 2

Genesis 8:10; Lamentations 4:6​

travail, 2

Isaiah 23:4, 54:1​

travailed, 2

Isaiah 66:7-8 (2)​

tremble, 2

Psalms 114:7; Jeremiah 5:22​

trembled, 2

Psalms 97:4; Habakkuk 3:10​

wounded, 2

1 Chronicles 10:3 (2)​

abide, 1

Hosea 11:6​

afraid, 1

Psalms 77:16​

anguish, 1

Deuteronomy 2:25​

bare, 1

Isaiah 51:2​

bring, 1

Isaiah 66:8​

dance, 1

Judges 21:21​

danced, 1

Judges 21:23​

driveth, 1

Proverbs 25:23 (2)​

great, 1

Ezekiel 30:16​

grievously, 1

Jeremiah 23:19​

hope, 1

Lamentations 3:26​

look, 1

Job 20:21​

made, 1

Job 15:7​

patiently, 1

Psalms 37:7 (2)​

rest, 1

2 Samuel 3:29​

shapen, 1

Psalms 51:5​

sorrow, 1

Jeremiah 51:29​

sorrowful, 1

Zechariah 9:5​

tarried, 1

Judges 3:25​

travaileth, 1

Job 15:20​

trust, 1

Job 35:14​

wait, 1

Psalms 37:7​

waited, 1

Micah 1:12​

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

"brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

חיל / חוּל ; chûl / chı̂yl

Total KJB Occurrences: 68

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees:

Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Again, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is citing Deuteronomy 6:4, and showing at least the Two Persons/beings therein (the Holy Ghost/Spirit will be dealt with upon a differing time, but know also that He also Is a Person/Being, uncreated and eternal, more on that elsewhere as needful.)​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

"him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

אָמוֹן ; 'âmôn

Total KJB occurrences: 1

him, as one brought up [with him], 1

Proverbs 8:30​

The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son? See below:

Psalms 40:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalms 40:8 KJB - I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Hebrews 10:7 KJB - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:8 KJB - Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:9 KJB - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539,

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 110

believed, 21

Genesis 15:6, 45:26; Exodus 14:31 (2); Numbers 20:12; Deuteronomy 9:23; 1 Samuel 27:12; 1 Kings 10:7; 2 Chronicles 9:6; Job 29:24; Psalms 27:13, 78:22,32, 106:12,24, 116:10, 119:66; Isaiah 53:1; Jeremiah 40:14; Lamentations 4:12; Jonah 3:5​

faithful, 20

Numbers 12:7; Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Samuel 2:35, 22:14; 2 Samuel 20:19; Nehemiah 9:8, 13:13; Psalms 12:1, 31:23, 89:37, 101:6; Proverbs 25:13 (2), 27:6; Isaiah 1:21,26, 8:2, 49:7; Jeremiah 42:5; Hosea 11:12​

believe, 19

Exodus 4:1,5, 19:8-9 (4); Numbers 14:11; Deuteronomy 1:32; 2 Kings 17:14; 2 Chronicles 20:20 (2), 32:15; Job 9:16, 39:12; Proverbs 26:25; Isaiah 43:9-10 (2); Jeremiah 12:6; Habakkuk 1:5​

sure, 11

1 Samuel 2:35, 25:28; 1 Kings 11:38; Job 24:22; Psalms 19:7, 93:5, 111:7; Isaiah 22:23,25, 33:16, 55:3​

established, 7

1 Samuel 3:20; 2 Samuel 7:16; 1 Chronicles 17:23-24 (2); 2 Chronicles 1:9, 20:20; Isaiah 7:9​

brought, 5

2 Kings 10:1; Esther 2:7,20; Proverbs 8:30; Lamentations 4:5​

believeth, 4

Job 15:22, 39:24; Isaiah 28:15-16 (2)​

trust, 4

Job 4:18, 15:15,31; Micah 7:5​

verified, 3

Genesis 42:20; 1 Kings 8:26; 2 Chronicles 6:17​

continuance, 2

Deuteronomy 28:59 (2)​

nurse, 2

Ruth 4:16; 2 Samuel 4:4​

nursing, 2

Numbers 11:12; Isaiah 49:23​

stedfast, 2

Psalms 78:8,37​

assurance, 1

Deuteronomy 28:66​

bringers, 1

2 Kings 10:5​

fail, 1

Jeremiah 15:18​

nursed, 1

Isaiah 60:4​

stand, 1

Psalms 89:28​

surely, 1

Hosea 5:9​

trusted, 1

Judges 11:20​

trusty, 1

Job 12:20 (2)​

… and is related to H542:

אמן ; 'âmân

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

cunning, 1

Song of Songs 7:1​

workman, 1

Song of Songs 7:1 (2)​

… and is related to H541:

אמן ; 'âman

Total KJB Occurrences: 1

right, 1

Isaiah 30:21​

… and is related to H540:

אמן (Aramaic) ; 'ăman

Total KJB Occurrences: 2

believed, 1

Daniel 6:23​

faithful, 1

Daniel 6:4​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

"from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

“from”​

מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“everlasting”​

עלם / עולם ; ôlâm

Total KJB Occurrences: 438​

"or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924

“or”​

מנּי / מנּי / מן ; min / minnı̂y / minnêy

Total KJB Occurrences: 79

“ever”​

קדמה / קדם ; qedem / qêdmâh

Total KJB Occurrences: 99​

See parallels in:

Deuteronomy 33:27 KJB - The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

Habakkuk 1:12 KJB - Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 KJB - But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

Notice in Proverbs 8, a summary listing:

[01] Jesus existed before all things,
[02] Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense,
[03] He was with God [the person/being of the Father] from all eternity,
[04] God [the person/being of the Son] over all, blessed forevermore,
[05] I [the person/being of the Son] was set up from everlasting,
[06] I [the person/being of the Son] was there [that is with the person/being of the Father],
[07] in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid,
[08] This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible
[09] [the person/being of the Son] even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [the person/being of the Son] are God [not the person/being of the Father or the person/being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit]
[10] the pre-existence of Christ [shines from] the eternal throne
[11] [the person/being of the Son] ruler … whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
[12] Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God
[13] Jesus [is the] “I AM” [the eternal] that spake unto Moses, He is not the 'I came to be'.
[14] Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God
[15] In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages.
[16] He [the person/being of the Son] assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God [the person/being of the Father]
[17] The Son was “rejoicing always” before the Father
[18] The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings.​

The person/being of the Son was always, eternally, the “wisdom of God [the person/being of the Father]”. There is never a time that the “wisdom of God” could not be in eternity past.

Just in case you missed it:

The Son of the Father is “His eternal Son” and is thus ever without beginning or ending, in any way, in His Deity, though Jesus did at a point in eternity take upon himself the [fallen sinful] human flesh [now glorified and immortal] and had a beginning as the second/last Adam, and even a dying therein [with a resurrection and ascension of course!; see Philippians 2:1-11 KJB].

There is an “eternal covenant” between the Father and the Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and since there was “never a time when God was not”, then He must always have been the “Father” in covenant relation with His “Son”

Mal_2:5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
​

A wise woman, once stated:

“... No one of the angels could become a substitute and surety for the human race, for their life is God’s; they could not surrender it. On Christ alone the human family depended for their existence. He is the eternal, self-existent Son, on whom no yoke had come. When God asked, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Christ alone of the angelic host could reply, “Here am I; send Me.” He alone had covenanted before the foundation of the world to become a surety for man. He could say that which not the highest angel could say—“I have power over my own life. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” ...” - Ms 101, 1897 (September 26, 1897) par. 28​

 

[coconut theology]

... Proverbs 8 ...

For those not desirous of lengthy and meticulous Bible study, here is the summary of the Key words and ideas:

Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and elsewhere, speaks about "wisdom". This "wisdom" is the Son of God the Father as attested by local and global scriptural [KJB] context [ie, see 1 Corinthians 1:24 KJB], and many others in history, as cited in the main.

Some have taken the passage, and keywords therein, and have come to the erroneous conclusion that the Son of God is a created being [such are the WTS/JW, Arians, etc], or at the very least if not 'created', was brought into being by the Father by some unknown process [these persons speculatively vary about the manner], at some unspecified point in eternity past.

The words that are focused upon in Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB, are the words:

[1] "possessed [me]",

[2] "set up",

[3] "brought forth" [x2] and

[4] "him, as one brought up [with him]":​

The definitions of these words, in their immediate context eliminates any idea of the Son of God the Father being "created" or having come into existence at some point in eternity past, but teach that the Son of God the Father, was always and eternally with the Father, and never at any point in eternity past not in existence as the Son, and in the act of creation, as seen in Genesis 1, which Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB relates, it was by the instrumentatlity of the person of the Son, who was with the Father, that the person of the Father created the Heaven and the earth and the things thereof, for the Father spake in Genesis to the Son, and the Son made, and the person of Holy Ghost/Spirit moved in response to this:

"possessed [me]":

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “buy”, “bought”, “get”, “purchased”, “buyer”, “getteth”, “got”, “buyest”, “attain”, “cattle” [property], “getting” [obtain, possess], “gotten” [obtained, received [a birth, Cain from Eve]], “jealousy”, “recover” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “redeemed” [buy/purchase back at cost to oneself], “verily [buy]” [truly purchase at dear sacrificial cost], since the words “in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], except it be connected to the redemption plan as it is in Christ Jesus, or to the effect that the Father exchanged words with the Son, and the Son believed the Father, or an interchange, exchange of ideas [like as merchandising], the Father sharing His will with the Son, and the Son rejoicing in that will.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “possessor”, “possessors”, which is to intimately know through and through [such as the word “possession” is understood, such that the Holy Ghost/Spirit should possess the whole heart, lest devils occupy/possess it], or to completely occupy or dwell in fully [such as to “possess” the land/earth, and the heart is the like unto the soil], to be LORD or Master of [such as a Father unto a Son], to own [to belong to someone's person], to have all or the whole entirety of something such as the whole mind/heart/spirit.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “possessed me” carries with it the meanings of “keep” [raise cattle, like as to raise a sheep, like as a Lamb, the Lamb of God in the Father's care], “owner” [one who has a purchased possession, such as a cow or Lamb]. The image then is of a tender compassionate Father caring for His Son, holding the Son in His arms, close to His bosom [as Jesus had done with John], cherishing the relationship as Father to Son, see 2 Samuel 12:3 KJB for a pictoral type.​

"set up":

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “molten” [to form], “melteth”, “offer” [as a sacrifice, or to pour out as in offering], “cover” [to place over], “pour” [out as in offering], “poured” [a drink offering, in anointing an object, etc.], except it be in the meaning of 'poured out upon', as in “anointed” [of the Holy Ghost/Spirit] from everlasting, as the Son of God is indeed, the “Christ” even before He is born [Matthew 2:4; Luke 2:11,26 KJB] and/or in the meaning of being the one chosen [and chose] to be “offer[ed]” in sacrifice from before all things were made; a life to be “poured out” as a gift for the redemption, for sin should it arise.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “set up” carries with it the meanings of “set”, but also dealing with the “anointed” heir and King.​

"brought forth" [x2]:

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB eliminates the meanings/uses of “pain”, “painful”, “pained”, “sorrow”, “grievous”, “grievously”, “grieved”, “fall [grievously]”, “great [pain]”, “anguish”, “afraid [troubled]”, “fear”, “wounded”, “tremble”, “trembled”, “shaketh”, “driveth”, “wounded” since the words “rejoicing always before him” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB], “Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.” [Proverbs 8:31 KJB] are associated, which would go with the meanings of “dance” and “danced”. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's Godly awesome reverential wonder at the beautiful and marvelous will of His eternal Father, and in the plan of redemption which included the cross. For instance, see “The fear of the LORD” - Proverbs 8:13 KJB.

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB also eliminates the meanings of 'giving birth' to, as meaning in coming into existence/world at some point in time, such as “travail”, “travailed”, “driveth” [as to push forward], “shapen”, “made”, “bring forth”, “brought [forth]”, “bare”, “calve”, “formed” since the words “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way” [Proverbs 8:22 KJB], “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning” [Proverbs 8:23 KJB], “I was there” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB] and “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB]. The context declares that the Son had ever been with the Father from eternity, ever “with” Him. The only way the other meanings may be included within the contextual definition, is in reference to the Son's being born/made of a woman, taking upon Himself the flesh nature of mankind, and entering into the world through the miracle of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh” [1 Timothy 3:16 KJB].

The context of Proverbs 8 KJB thus helps us to know that the phrase “brought forth” carries with it the meanings of “stayed” [waited patiently or attended to another, as in 'waiting upon', or ever at the ready, ever at the right hand to obey, called upon to attend], “abide”, “hope” [quietly wait upon/for], “look” [towards, up to], “patiently”, “rest”, “tarried”, “trust”, “wait”, “waited”, since the words “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:” [Proverbs 8:27 KJB], “When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:” [Proverbs 8:28 KJB], “When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:” [Proverbs 8:29 KJB], “Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;” [Proverbs 8:30 KJB; see also Psalms 40:8 KJB]. Thus when the eternal Father called for the eternal Son, the Son who ever waited upon the will of His Father, said, 'Yes, Father, here am I.' and thus the Son was brought to accomplish the Father's decrees.
​

"him, as one brought up [with him]":

The Son was eternally the “fellow” [associate, companion, neighbour, etc] of the Father, for notice that it does not say that the Son became the fellow at any time past, but simply says, “the man, my fellow”:

Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

The Son is the eternal “help meet”, the “right hand of” [thus ever at His right hand] of the Father. The Son is the ever “faithful” one, the ever “obedient” one to His eternal Father, ever honouring His eternal Father's requests and commands, always “delight[ing]” [Proverbs 8:30; Psalms 40:8 KJB] in doing His will. Ever “rejoicing” in the will of His eternal Father. The Son eternally and ever “believes” the word of His eternal Father, and there is no doubt in the Son about the Father. When the eternal Father says, “My Son.” The Son says, “Here am I, my Father.” Most precious. Think of this eternal relationship. Pray right now. Doesn't your own hurt burn within you to be as the Son?​

Thus on the whole, when the eternal Father was to create the Heaven and the earth in Genesis 1 [as recounted by Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB], implementing the plan of redemption which had been hid for eternity in the mind of God should sin arise as it had done in Lucifer's rebellion, the Father by His direction/command/will, He called for the eternal Son to implement that plan, and direction, and the anointed Son ever willing to obey and Honour His Father, rejoicing before His Father carried out the will of the Father and made ["and God made"] all things as specified by the Father ["and God said"], the Holy Ghost/Spirit moving ["the Spirit of God moved" and "saw" (the eternal witness)] in response to these things. Thus the Father made all things by His Son - by Wisdom, which had eternally been with the Father.

 

[kjw47]

Strawman. Who ever stated that Paul contradicts himself? Not I - ever. You made that false accusation in the place of my real and actual position, which is that scripture (KJB) cannot be broken (John 10:35), or in other words, there are no real contradictions in scripture, which I have stated on several occasions now.





So, you simply made up a false position, which never represented my actual position, then attacked your own false position, which was never my position, and then attempt to strut around in it.

It was false.

Secondly, never did I say that that the Father doesn't share His eternal throne, with the Son, who Himself (Son) is also Deity (nature) and eternal as the Father (sources already cited, which you simply ignored and did not respond to yet in any meaningful way - A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist ). The Father and Son are two persons/beings, that sit upon the same eternal Throne, as it is written:

Reality:

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

Typology:

Gen_41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.​

1 Corinthians 8:6,

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.​

This text does not state that the Father is God only. It is in context of the many false gods, vs 5,7:

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.​

In fact, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is actually citing Deuteronomy 6:4, in expansion in the light of the revelation of Jesus Christ,

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:​

I shall come to this more in a bit. Yet. carefully read, Paul is identifying at least two Persons/Beings within Deuteronomy 6:4, in his citation in 1 Corinthians 8:6. More on this in a bit in some detail.

Also, the reference you gave of 2 Cor 11:12-15 is incorrect in the context in which you cited it. The verses you meant to cite are actually, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

Wherein, did I ever say I disagreed with it, or that the theology that Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father, disagree with it? You will find that nowhere in any of my responses on this or any forum. Again, you gave the strawman of my actual position, and again refused to deal with the texts I provided in detail. You are simply hoping that another text with bail out the false theology of the WTS/JW.

Of course the Son is subject to the Father. Always has been, always will be, even now. See the 5th Commandment.

The WTS/JW have a notoriously bad translation of Proverbs 8, and this I shall deal with in separate responses, demonstrating that eternal relationship between the Persons/Beings of the Father and of the Son, in Proverbs 8. The word used in associated with "wisdom" does not mean created there. This will be demonstrated shortly in thorough detail. It will be unanswerable. It will simply cause the WTS/JW to go into apoplexy and begin saying things that do not make sense.

Where in any of my responses are "lies"? Please provide the exact citation with demonstration, otherwise, you have another false accusation on your record against you, written in Heaven.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.​

Of course, Jesus' Father is His "God", and of course the Father is also God of the Jews (but so also is the Son; in all the texts I already cited which you did not properly address yet). The Son, took upon Himself, fallen flesh nature (which WTS/JW deny) as mankind, and was/is the example for mankind (1 Peter 2:21), and was/is not an "atheist", but a believing member of the tribe of Judah. The theology of the WTS/JW has to make others theology into either the false theology of Roman Trinitarianism, or the equally false Unitarianism - neither of which are my position, neither the position of the true Seventh-day Adventist. The true position is Godhead, as expounded in several posts now.

Again, you as a member of the WTS/JW have to misrepresent our position by placing yet another strawman upon the field and knocking it over. If that is what you need to do, by all means, but it will never actually address my real position, which remains to be addressed in any meaningful way.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.​

Again, this simply shows that the WTS/JW doesn't understand the position taken by real Bible believers. The Son is now also eternally a man (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:13,18, 2:8, 5:5, 14:14, etc) and thus worships His Father as "God". Also, the Son is eternally in the position of being the Son (now in two way two natures, Deity and mankind - Philippians 2, Hebrews 1, etc)

So, as a bible (KJB) believer, I believe all the texts cited and understand how they agree with all things I already presented, which can never agree with the WTS/JW theology, which is why they have to change their text (NWT), and I do not (KJB).

Here is a contradiction---John 1:1--John 20:17, rev 3:12--Either God has a God or John 1:1 =error, or Jesus lied-- Which is it?

 

[kjw47]

I am going to present Proverb 8 in several responses. I will provide a Table of Contents for easy searching:
Here is the Table of Contents for this post, for fast searching:

The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually

The texts of Proverbs 8:22-31 KJB and the key words

"possessed [me]" - Proverbs 8:22 KJB, H7069

Subsection, “Wisdom” - “She”

Subsection, Whom are the scriptures [KJB] about?​

"set up" - Proverbs 8:23 KJB, H5258

"brought forth" - Proverbs 8:24,25 KJB, H2342

"him, as one brought up [with him]" - Proverbs 8:30 KJB, H525

The word “'âmôn” Proverbs 8:30 KJB; H525, comes from H539

"from everlasting" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H5769

"or ever" - Proverbs 8:23, H4480, H6924​

The Proverbs 8 KJB contextually:

Proverbs 8:1 KJB - Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Proverbs 8:2 KJB - She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Proverbs 8:3 KJB - She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Proverbs 8:4 KJB - Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

Proverbs 8:5 KJB - O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Proverbs 8:6 KJB - Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

Proverbs 8:7 KJB - For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Proverbs 8:8 KJB - All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

Proverbs 8:9 KJB - They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Proverbs 8:10 KJB - Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

Proverbs 8:11 KJB - For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Proverbs 8:12 KJB - I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

Proverbs 8:13 KJB - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Proverbs 8:14 KJB - Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Proverbs 8:15 KJB - By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

Proverbs 8:16 KJB - By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

Proverbs 8:17 KJB - I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Proverbs 8:18 KJB - Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

Proverbs 8:19 KJB - My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

Proverbs 8:20 KJB - I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

Proverbs 8:21 KJB - That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Proverbs 8:22 KJB - The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Proverbs 8:23 KJB - I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 KJB - When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25 KJB - Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26 KJB - While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 KJB - When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28 KJB - When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 KJB - When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 KJB - Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Proverbs 8:31 KJB - Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Proverbs 8:32 KJB - Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

Proverbs 8:33 KJB - Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Proverbs 8:34 KJB - Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Proverbs 8:35 KJB - For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Proverbs 8:36 KJB - But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.​

Possessed = error==God does not possess one. Produced is correct.

LORD is error in the OT--YHWH is correct.

 

[coconut theology]

Here is a contradiction---John 1:1--John 20:17, rev 3:12--Either God has a God or John 1:1 =error, or Jesus lied-- Which is it?

Yes God (the Person of the Son) has a God (the Person of the Father). No contradiction whatsoever. Thus they are JEHOVAH (singular name) Elohiym (plurality of Persons/Beings), like unto "Smith family".

JEHOVAH the Ancient of days (the Person/Being of the Father).

Jesus JEHOVAH (the Person/Being of the Son)

The Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (the Person/Being of the Spirit)​

It is like saying (humanly speaking, so it falls short ultimately)

Bob Smith (Dad)

Bob Smith Jr (Son)

Cousin Smith (Relative).​

See how the name (JEHOVAH) is amongst them/shared by them all? It is this character that all three Persons/Beings share, yet they are distinct Persons/Beings.

It is no contradiction, and neither a lie, which are two false dichotomies which fall short of the real truth as it is written in scripture, all because you simply refuse to acknowledge the truth of the Persons.

John 1:1 is referring back to Genesis, as shown in my Proverbs 8 response, which you obviously didn't understand, or either completely read, for in Genesis God (the Person /Being of the Father) speaks to God (the Person/Being of the Son)

God said = Father

God made/created = Son

God moved/saw = Holy Ghost (as witness)​

God is a title of Lordship over others. It may be held by as many as it is needful to hold it. Even Adam was "god of this world" (Genesis 3:5) before satan usurped it (2 Corinthians 4:4), and it is even used in such an way in John 10 by Jesus (more on that as needful). There is no lie, neither contradiction, as the "God" (Lord) over the Son is the Father, and this has always been their eternal relationship to one another, and yet the Father and Son are both "God" (Lords; along with the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit) over all Creation, as they created all things in tandem with each other, as working together (like a musical "chord", a "trio").

"God" is also used in scripture in reference to Deity's nature (Philippians 2). The Father and the Son share this same nature, and the nature of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is a mystery in scripture never given unto us (any who speak on it, speak outside their ken).:

...

Genesis 1:1 KJB - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 KJB - And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:6 KJB - And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 KJB - And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJB - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1 John 1:1 KJB - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 1:2 KJB - (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 John 1:3 KJB - That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Colossians 1:15 KJB - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 KJB - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Colossians 1:19 KJB - For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Again, 1 Corinthians 8:6 is citing Deuteronomy 6:4, and showing at least the Two Persons/beings therein (the Holy Ghost/Spirit will be dealt with upon a differing time, but know also that He also Is a Person/Being, uncreated and eternal, more on that elsewhere as needful.)

So, John 1:1 aligns perfectly with John 20:17, for it speaks of the Persons/Beings of the Father and the Son, and thus since the Son has a Father, the Father is "God" (Lord/Father) over the Son. It is in this way that God (Son) can be with God (Father). Do not think that being the Son, is lesser in Deity's nature. You have a confusion of Nature, Position and Persons.

 

[coconut theology]

Possessed = error==God does not possess one. Produced is correct.

LORD is error in the OT--YHWH is correct.

You are greatly mistaken as I have shown in the previous responses which you did not address in any way worth the time:

Psa_139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.​

Just one verse refutes you, but I provided many more than that, for God comes in to the heart by the Holy Ghost, through the words of scripture, and dwells therein.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.​

Jesus is speaking.

The KJB knows the name of JEHOVAH:

Gen_22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Exo_6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:

Jdg_6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

Psa_83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isa_12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isa_26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
​

If you would understand why the KJB translators did what they did in regards translation JEHOVAH to "LORD", was to keep the name of God from being abused (for the name is sacred, holy, awesome, not common), and thus was to be read in substitution knowing that whenever "LORD" was read, JEHOVAH's name was there. There is no secrecy here.

For instance, do you go around using your earthly fathers First name very often, or even when speaking to him? No, you do not, and neither do most people. You say, father, dad, papa, pop, etc. It is in rare instances when you actually use your earthly father's First name.

There is no disrespect in this, nor deceit, nor obfuscation, since the KJB placed in several places the actual name, and even told the others, in their preface why they did what they did.

If you do not like that, then get the so-called restored names King James. It is your stumbling block, not mine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have some questions about what I presently understand about the WTS/JW prophecy timelines (as previously given), but I want to hear what you have to say first please, so that I am sure I understand. Thank you.

I see that the timeline given by William Miller that gives 1844 as the year the promises would be fulfilled, is correct.

The Start date for Prophecy that can prove the Messages of Jesus Christ, Muhammad and the Bab is BC457.

The 2300 year prophecy gives us 1844 (as no year 0)

1844 was the fulfilment of the end of ages Messiah, the dawn of a new day and a new age. The year AD1844 was also the year AH1260 which ties Daniel to Revelation without any doubt.

It shows to me how great God's Word is, a lot of replies in this thread shows me how much man can make of that Word.

Regards Tony





It is that simple.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

JEHOVAH the Ancient of days (the Person/Being of the Father).

I see that Baha'u'llah, who is the Father, has explained in great detail about how this can be so.

Regards Tony

 

[kjw47]

Yes God (the Person of the Son) has a God (the Person of the Father). No contradiction whatsoever. Thus they are JEHOVAH (singular name) Elohiym (plurality of Persons/Beings), like unto "Smith family".

JEHOVAH the Ancient of days (the Person/Being of the Father).

Jesus JEHOVAH (the Person/Being of the Son)

The Holy Ghost/Spirit of JEHOVAH (the Person/Being of the Spirit)​

It is like saying (humanly speaking, so it falls short ultimately)

Bob Smith (Dad)

Bob Smith Jr (Son)

Cousin Smith (Relative).​

See how the name (JEHOVAH) is amongst them/shared by them all? It is this character that all three Persons/Beings share, yet they are distinct Persons/Beings.

It is no contradiction, and neither a lie, which are two false dichotomies which fall short of the real truth as it is written in scripture, all because you simply refuse to acknowledge the truth of the Persons.

John 1:1 is referring back to Genesis, as shown in my Proverbs 8 response, which you obviously didn't understand, or either completely read, for in Genesis God (the Person /Being of the Father) speaks to God (the Person/Being of the Son)

God said = Father

God made/created = Son

God moved/saw = Holy Ghost (as witness)​

God is a title of Lordship over others. It may be held by as many as it is needful to hold it. Even Adam was "god of this world" (Genesis 3:5) before satan usurped it (2 Corinthians 4:4), and it is even used in such an way in John 10 by Jesus (more on that as needful). There is no lie, neither contradiction, as the "God" (Lord) over the Son is the Father, and this has always been their eternal relationship to one another, and yet the Father and Son are both "God" (Lords; along with the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost/Spirit) over all Creation, as they created all things in tandem with each other, as working together (like a musical "chord", a "trio").

"God" is also used in scripture in reference to Deity's nature (Philippians 2). The Father and the Son share this same nature, and the nature of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is a mystery in scripture never given unto us (any who speak on it, speak outside their ken).:



So, John 1:1 aligns perfectly with John 20:17, for it speaks of the Persons/Beings of the Father and the Son, and thus since the Son has a Father, the Father is "God" (Lord/Father) over the Son. It is in this way that God (Son) can be with God (Father). Do not think that being the Son, is lesser in Deity's nature. You have a confusion of Nature, Position and Persons.

You are twisting it.

 

[kjw47]

You are greatly mistaken as I have shown in the previous responses which you did not address in any way worth the time:

Psa_139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.​

Just one verse refutes you, but I provided many more than that, for God comes in to the heart by the Holy Ghost, through the words of scripture, and dwells therein.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.​

Jesus is speaking.

The KJB knows the name of JEHOVAH:

Gen_22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Exo_6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Exo_17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:

Jdg_6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

Psa_83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Isa_12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

Isa_26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
​

If you would understand why the KJB translators did what they did in regards translation JEHOVAH to "LORD", was to keep the name of God from being abused (for the name is sacred, holy, awesome, not common), and thus was to be read in substitution knowing that whenever "LORD" was read, JEHOVAH's name was there. There is no secrecy here.

For instance, do you go around using your earthly fathers First name very often, or even when speaking to him? No, you do not, and neither do most people. You say, father, dad, papa, pop, etc. It is in rare instances when you actually use your earthly father's First name.

There is no disrespect in this, nor deceit, nor obfuscation, since the KJB placed in several places the actual name, and even told the others, in their preface why they did what they did.

If you do not like that, then get the so-called restored names King James. It is your stumbling block, not mine.

I don't need to get a different translation. Facts and Jesus teachings prove no trinity exists.
Men had 0 right to remove Gods personal name from the OT in nearly 6800 places. If they believe Gods written word is inspired by God, They had no right. Every spot-GOD or LORD all capitols. The titles do not belong YHWH or Jehovah belongs. Jesus points his followers to his Father. Not to himself. One must go through Jesus to get to the Father. To accomplish this daily-John 4:22-24

 

[cataway]

​

Do not think that being the Son, is lesser in Deity's nature. You have a confusion of Nature, Position and Persons.

Matthew 11
11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

I'd say Jesus disagrees with you

 

[coconut theology]

You are twisting it.

Simply saying I am "twisting" something, and then providing no evidence I have done so, is merely accusational bias. Such an claim, may be verily dismissed without a second thought. I have stated, that the WTS/JW could not answer what was provided, and yet have not, and will not. In any attempt to do so, will only deepen the hole that the WTS/JW find themselves already in on the subject. Why do you not begin to address the passages I raised at the beginning of the challenge?

"Here are some of the most feared texts by WTS/JW in the OT:

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
Hos 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
​

Why move to every other text in the whole Bible, and yet not deal with these present? The WTS/JW member can circle as much as they like (and they do, in their set pattern, never considering all the other texts on the issue). I have now addressed those that you have raised in some detail, and those without an serious rebuttable by yourself or other WTS/JW member on this board. Why not address the ones I have raised?

Why is it so detestable to you, to acknowledge that Jesus is also Deity by very nature? Do you realize, that in so rejecting this, there is none else that can deliver? No created being can offer their life as a ransom, as they are created, and their life is not their own. Only a Being who is uncreated, and whose Life is their own can offer it. This is why the entire theology of the redemptoral plan of the WTS/JW is bankrupt from start to finish.

We have not even considered the Personhood of the Holy Ghost/Spirit yet, do you desire to consider this also, for I would like to begin with the following:

Some stumble over the Holy Spirit being called “it”, and by this claim that He is only a force, a power, a non-intelligence.

Yet, they should also recognize that Jesus was called “it” [Revelation 12:4 KJB], “child” [Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB], “holy thing” [Luke 1:35 KJB] and “holy child” [Acts 4:27,30 KJB], all of which are also neuter gender. Jesus is still a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10 KJB] and masculine.

The Father in Heaven, who indeed is a "person" [Hebrews 1:3; Job 13:8 KJB], is also given neuter terms, such as "Ancient of Days" [Daniel 7:9,13,22 KJB] and "Majesty" [Hebrews 1:3, 8:1 KJB], "I AM", "the living" [Matthew 16:16, 26:63; John 6:69; Acts 14:15 KJB], "Maker" [Job 36:3; Hosea 8:14; Hebrews 11:10 KJB], "Creator" [Romans 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19 KJB], and even referred to as "it" connected with "this voice", and "angel" (message) [John 12:29 KJB], etc, etc.

The wicked angels, also "persons" (fallen, contrasted to unfallen) [Luke 15:7 KJB], are also called “it” [Luke 8:29, 9:39, 11:14, etc. KJB], but they too are intelligent [though created] beings and cited in the masculine.

Neuter terms do not automatically mean inanimate, for instance, the terms “child”, “babe”, “person”, “mail-carrier”, “flight attendant”, etc.

 

[coconut theology]

I don't need to get a different translation.

As I stated, it is your choice to remain with the NWT which is simply based in the Vaticanus (B) (secret vaults) and Sinaiticius (Aleph) (desert; Matthew 24:26) and so called septuaginta (which are really no such thing) and other corrupt MSS and codices, and even edited by Jesuits, as already cited.

Facts and Jesus teachings prove no trinity exists.

Non-sequitur. I do not believe, nor teach (not even once in this thread) the Roman Catholic "trinity" (Trent def.).

What the WTS/JW member has to constantly do, is place their strawman on the field, attack it, and declare victory, all the while, their entire system of redemption is laid to waste by the arguments presented against their actual and documented position.

I am not Roman Catholic Trinitarian., neither am I Unitarian.

The Bible (KJB) teaches Godhead, which is distinct from both of those false theologies just stated. I can even show you the difference in print, by their own sources when compared to what is presented by myself, in this thread, from scripture.

Men had 0 right to remove Gods personal name from the OT in nearly 6800 places.

Again, this is a strawman. The name is not "remove(d)" at all. It is still in all those places in the Hebrew text. The translation is another matter, and already stated why the translators did what they did, and you simply ignored their reasons.

Secondly, the NWT, in as many places in their NT text, remove the word "Lord" (kurios") and replace it with their JEHOVAH in those places, except when it comes to Jesus as being described by the same word, and when it is being directly cited from the OT text, as for instance in Hebrews 1:8-12. Here, the NWT fails to render "Lord" (Hebrews 1:10 NWT "Lord"), as JEHOVAH, as they know it is being cited from Psalms 102, in reference to Jesus, being "the same", as is also done in Hebrews 13.

If they believe Gods written word is inspired by God, They had no right. Every spot-GOD or LORD all capitols.

O please. See your own failure in the NWT, especially in the NT portion. Numerous examples, beyond Hebrews 1:10 can be given.

The titles do not belong YHWH or Jehovah belongs. Jesus points his followers to his Father. Not to himself.

True and false.

Jesus said, "I am the way". "I am ... the truth", "I am ... the life"., "I am the door.", "I am the good shepherd", "I am the resurrection and the life", and so on.

Yes, Jesus points people to His Father, of course, never in denial, but notice that it is always through Jesus that one must go to get to the Father. So, Jesus pointed to Himself, as that entry.

One must go through Jesus to get to the Father.

See, you just proved what I said, and disproved what you said.

To accomplish this daily-John 4:22-24

Yet, Jesus is Deity (God), not the person/being of the Father, and this is where the WTS/JW fails to recognize that Jesus receives worship all through the whole Bible, with texts already cited. For instance:

Exo 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.​

The person that Moses is standing near of on Mt. Sinai, is 'Jesus', who is passing by before Him, in glory.