A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

[Shadow Wolf]

You are assuming that time is linear and unidirectional, because that is your experience of it. But there are conceptions of time, in both philosophy and physics, where the flow of time is an illusion of subjective human perspective.

Time doesn't universally happen at the same time, but there is no going forwards or backwards. At best, theoretically, are methods that slow aging, or in the case of space travel to bend the planes of space-time to bring to distant points closer together.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then free will does not exist.

I said "you mean that we will do nothing other than that .. it's not that we can't, if we had wanted to".

How can you conclude that we have no free-will, if we can choose what we want to choose?
You are confused, or purposely peddling falsehood..

The fact that we will do what G-d knows has nothing to do with free-will .. we can choose what we want to choose, and that is what G-d knows.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact that we will do what G-d knows has nothing to do with free-will .

It has everything to do with free will. If your god knows what we will do then choice can only be an illusion as it does not and necessarily cannot exist because we can only do what your god knows what we will do.
If your god knows you will have spaghetti for how could you possibly have a steak instead? It's in your fridge, but if god knows you are having spaghetti then how is it at all possible for the steal to be an option since gods knows what we will do?

How can you conclude that we have no free-will, if we can choose what we want to choose?
You are confused, or purposely peddling falsehood..

No, there is nothing false about my statements. If the outcome of an event is known and predetermined then it can necessarily only have that one outcome. If multiple outcomes are possible, then free will is real BUT that necessary must mean god cannot know what we will as we have not yet decided.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If your god knows you will have spaghetti for how could you possibly have a steak instead?

That is irrelevant. It says nothing about why you choose to have spaghetti.
You imply the reason is because G-d knows it .. but that is not the case.
You are falling for the infamous paradox, and are seemingly mesmerized by it.

No, there is nothing false about my statements. If the outcome of an event is known and predetermined then it can necessarily only have that one outcome.

..but predetermined by what?
I say it is the choice that predetermines it, and you imply that G-d has chosen it for you, just because He knows due to 'relativity of time' . i.e. he perceives time differently to us

If multiple outcomes are possible, then free will is real BUT that necessary must mean god cannot know what we will as we have not yet decided.

Uh no.
Firstly..
Your wording is misleading .. the only reason we will choose what G-d knows, is because we know
G-d is never wrong .. and not because we have to choose it.

We don't have to choose any particular thing .. it is a fallacy based on a conditional.

..and secondly..
How G-d knows what we will choose, is because as far as G-d is concerned, it's as if it has already happened. i.e. G-d does not share our perception of 'now'

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is irrelevant. It says nothing about why you choose to have spaghetti.

The why ia irrelevant if the outcome is known. It doesn't matter why because the only possible dish for dinner is spaghetti.

You are falling for the infamous paradox, and are seemingly mesmerized by it.

..but predetermined by what?

By it already being an event where the outcome is known ahead.
It was presumably predetermined by your god who set everything into motion and knows tbe outcome of everything.

I say it is the choice that predetermines it,

Choice and predetermined cannot exist together. If you choose then it is not predetermined. If it is predetermined there is no choice.
This is the very definitions of the word.

and you imply that G-d has chosen it for you, just because He knows due to 'relativity of time' . i.e. he perceives time differently to us

Lets say a man is walking down the road. He comes to a crossroad and must choose to go right or left. God knows he will go right. Can he go left?

Your wording is misleading .. the only reason we will choose what G-d knows, is because we know
G-d is never wrong .. and not because we have to choose it.

If god already knows what we will do then there is no choice. Choice does not eixst and is an illusion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The why ia irrelevant if the outcome is known.

Of course it isn't. If you choose it because you want to choose it, then you have
free-will to choose.

By it already being an event where the outcome is known ahead.
It was presumably predetermined by your god who set everything into motion and knows tbe outcome of everything.

Nope! That is illogical.
If G-d chose everything for us, then there IS no free-will .. but you know that, and that is
presumably why you are suggesting it.

Choice and predetermined cannot exist together. If you choose then it is not predetermined. If it is predetermined there is no choice.
This is the very definitions of the word.

The word 'predetermined' is often used in a misleading context.
Some people believe that G-d has literally already ordained everything that happens..
..but most people believe that our choices are part of that .. so it is not so simplistic,
and easily misunderstood.

If god already knows what we will do then there is no choice. Choice does not eixst and is an illusion.

Repeating that like a mantra does not explain why you think so .. it just reinforces
the mistaken fallacy.
I notice you ignore the scientific explanation of how G-d knows what we choose..
G-d is aware of every leaf that has fallen, and will fall.

Of course, you don't have to believe it, but scientifically, it is not impossible.
Btw, G-d does not need a "T.a.r.d.i.s"

 

[paarsurrey]

A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people), never claimed to be G-d in first person, it is the Pauline anonymous narratives that have been doctored to be understood as such, please, right?
Bible , I understand, is a doctored Pauline anonymous document not worthy of making anybody a god or son of god, right, please?:

" The New Testament preserves signs of these oral traditions and early documents:[43] for example, parallel passages between Matthew, Mark and Luke on one hand and the Pauline epistles and the Epistle to the Hebrews on the other are typically explained by assuming that all were relying on a shared oral tradition,[citation needed] and the dedicatory preface of Luke refers to previous written accounts of the life of Jesus.[44] The early traditions were fluid and subject to alteration*, sometimes transmitted by those who had known Jesus personally, but more often by wandering prophets and teachers like the Apostle Paul, who did not know him personally.[45] "

Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia​

en.wikipedia.org
* doctored by the Paulines, right, and therefore not reliable for most of the times and or all times, please, right??

Why stick to Pauline-fluid and altered documents and that also is against the deeds and teachings of Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah, right, please??!

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never claimed to be G-d in first person, it is the Pauline anonymous narratives that have been doctored to be understood as such, please, right?
Bible , I understand, is a doctored Pauline anonymous document not worthy of making anybody a god or son of god, right, please?:
Even as per the doctored and Pauline-fluid NT Bible hinted/cleared it in John 10:33-35, please, right?:

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

Bible Gateway passage: John 10 - New International Version

The Good Shepherd and His Sheep - “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep...

www.biblegateway.com

Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never claimed to be G-d in first person, it is the Pauline anonymous narratives that have been doctored to be understood as such, please, right?
Bible , I understand, is a doctored Pauline anonymous document not worthy of making anybody a god or son of god, right, please?:
Even as per the doctored and Pauline-fluid NT Bible hinted/cleared it in John 10:33-35, please, right?

So Bible coined a term to call those people ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came, right, please?

Regards

 

[Muffled]

Then it makes your god look monstrously cruel and wicked because that means he drown 99.9999% of all life on Earth because of wickedness and evil know very well that his flood would fail to do away with wickedness.

I believe the flood was local so that leaves a lot of evil people alive. What it does is eliminate other ethnicities form Mesopotamia leaving His people as the only ethnicity. I believe a vacuum likes to be filled so I suspect Mesopotamia had an influx of other ethnicities after the flood.

 

[Muffled]

A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never claimed to be G-d in first person, it is the Pauline anonymous narratives that have been doctored to be understood as such, please, right?
Bible , I understand, is a doctored Pauline anonymous document not worthy of making anybody a god or son of god, right, please?:
Even as per the doctored and Pauline-fluid NT Bible hinted/cleared it in John 10:33-35, please, right?

So Bible coined a term to call those people ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came, right, please?

Regards

I believe you are beating a dead horse. Jesus acknowledged His divinity several times.

 

[Muffled]

But that would make God the cause of one sinning? If God did as such, then why punish the sinner?

I believe that is false. God is not the author of sin. I believe is this case individuals are the authors who have already written the script that God knows.

 

[metis]

I believe that is false. God is not the author of sin. I believe is this case individuals are the authors who have already written the script that God knows.

So, you agree that God does not predestine us, right? Therefore, God is not in complete control of what takes place on Earth, right? If that is the case, then you don't believe in predestination, right?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, you agree that God does not predestine us, right? Therefore, God is not in complete control of what takes place on Earth, right?

Too simplistic..
Would you say that G-d was not in control of Noah's flood?
Do you not think that G-d can "send us astray", as well as guide us?

NB. I don't mean in a 'wave a magic wand' sort of way, but psychologically, as G-d is of infinite concept

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe the flood was local so that leaves a lot of evil people alive. What it does is eliminate other ethnicities form Mesopotamia leaving His people as the only ethnicity. I believe a vacuum likes to be filled so I suspect Mesopotamia had an influx of other ethnicities after the flood.

There's no evidence to support any of that. Yes, those who study it seriously tend to think the story refers to a localized flood, but that's not what the Bible says. And if it wiped out an ethnicity or few amd others came in this would be very visible and obvious to researchers but there's no evidence to support such a hypothesis.

 

[metis]

Too simplistic..

IYO. Sometimes "simplistic" happens to be correct.

Would you say that G-d was not in control of Noah's flood?

I strongly tend to believe it's a myth mean to teach certain lessons as it makes 0 sense on the literalistic level.

Do you not think that G-d can "send us astray", as well as guide us?

To me, that would make no sense.

NB. I don't mean in a 'wave a magic wand' sort of way, but psychologically, as G-d is of infinite concept

Could you elaborate on that as it's unclear to me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

To me, that would make no sense.

..so you think that a person should share all their secrets with everybody?
..and that G-d should share them with everybody, even if they mean harm to G-d's most-loved?
i.e. the pious

Could you elaborate on that as it's unclear to me.

You imply that G-d has no control, as He's given us free-will .. but without G-d, there would
be nothing at all, imo.
No .. ALL the power is with G-d, the Sublime, Tremendous.

 

[metis]

..so you think that a person should share all their secrets with everybody?
..and that G-d should share them with everybody, even if they mean harm to G-d's most-loved?
i.e. the pious


You imply that G-d has no control, as He's given us free-will .. but without G-d, there would
be nothing at all, imo.
No .. ALL the power is with G-d, the Sublime, Tremendous.

IYO, not mine.

 

[paarsurrey]

A few questions for Christians and others interested in commenting

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah never claimed to be G-d in first person, it is the Pauline anonymous narratives that have been doctored to be understood as such.
Bible , I understand, is a doctored Pauline anonymous document not worthy of making anybody a god or son of god:
Even as per the doctored and Pauline-fluid NT Bible hinted/cleared it in John 10:33-35.

So Bible coined a term to call those people ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came, i.e., all the righteous persons are sons of god, Jesus was no different as Jesus said that scripture cannot be set aside meaning it should be understood within these meanings.
So, it should be clearly understood that Trinity has no basis in (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah.

Regards

 

[Muffled]

So, you agree that God does not predestine us, right? Therefore, God is not in complete control of what takes place on Earth, right? If that is the case, then you don't believe in predestination, right?

I believe I was born into the family of God's choice which is predestination. What God does not change is my will within the situation He created for me.