A few thoughts from a former atheist

[LuisDantas]

Okay, let's talk then. I was thinking in terms of God as an entity greater, more powerful and knowledgeable than man and having some control (if and when He chooses to exert it) over man. That's a pretty broad statement and it allows for a lot of latitude. It covers God as Mormons see Him, as Jews or Muslims see him and probably the gods of the Eastern religions, paganism, etc. Even though the God I worship is different in many regards to the gods of paganism, don't they have at least these characteristics in common?

I probably should not be surprised, but I still disagree.

Odds are that your circles attract people like yourself, my dear Katzpur. I'm happy for you.

 

[Katzpur]

I probably should not be surprised, but I still disagree.

Okay, but explain why. Given a general enough definition of God, wouldn't what I said make sense? I need you to explain your reasoning.

Odds are that your circles attract people like yourself, my dear Katzpur. I'm happy for you.

Actually, I've yet to find a circle I fit well into (as my sig implies).

 

[LuisDantas]

Okay, but explain why. Given a general enough definition of God, wouldn't what I said make sense? I need you to explain your reasoning.

All of a sudden I feel a bit miserable. Can it be that many/most theists have not met the variety that I so often do?

It is fairly typical for the theists I meet to use their belief as a shield of sorts, both to hide their behavior and to protect them from the responsibility of same. The more exalted their conception of God, the more likely it is to be perceived as a Capo of sorts, so that they leave aside all moral considerations and perceptions in order to simply make a point of stating their submission to his supposed Grace.

Apparently many of them find some sort of relief in "surrendering to God" in exchange for a lack of serious consideration about their doings.

Believe me, Katzpur, the God they believe in is nothing like yours - even if they often claim much the same verses to describe him. Yours is a wise and loving God. Theirs is just a powerful accomplice, perhaps an enabler.

Actually, I've yet to find a circle I fit well into (as my sig implies).

That is... so very unfair.

 

[Bunyip]

So you were cynical and angry, but what did that have to do with atheism?

 

[George-ananda]

It is fairly typical for the theists I meet to use their belief as a shield of sorts, both to hide their behavior and to protect them from the responsibility of same. The more exalted their conception of God, the more likely it is to be perceived as a Capo of sorts, so that they leave aside all moral considerations and perceptions in order to simply make a point of stating their submission to his supposed Grace.

Apparently many of them find some sort of relief in "surrendering to God" in exchange for a lack of serious consideration about their doings.

Wow, I'm a little taken aback by your thoughts on most theists.

I don't see that at all. Could Brazil be quite different than North America? Or do we just look through different color glasses? I've been in Central America and can see how more simple and accepting of religion they are (obviously I can be accused of over-generalizing). Never been to Brazil. I can generalize again and say North Americans are more intellectually challenging of religion. 'Spiritual but not religious' is often heard; morality (even if liberal morality) is part and parcel of spirituality.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Wow, I'm a little taken aback by your thoughts on most theists.

I don't see that at all. Could Brazil be quite different than North America? Or do we just look through different color glasses? I've been in Central America and can see how more simple and accepting of religion they are (obviously I can be accused of over-generalizing). Never been to Brazil. I can generalize again and say North Americans are more intellectually challenging of religion. 'Spiritual but not religious' is often heard; morality (even if liberal morality) is part and parcel of spirituality.

I'm in NA and have a similar view of most, not all, theists, as Luis. I do not believe NAs are more intellectually challenging of religion. Perhaps less so as so many american accept religion without any thought, as compared to europeans.

I don't think all theists really think about hiding behind grace, but they find comfort in 'surrendering' to grace rather than grappling with ethical issues.

 

[Katzpur]

Believe me, Katzpur, the God they believe in is nothing like yours - even if they often claim much the same verses to describe him. Yours is a wise and loving God. Theirs is just a powerful accomplice, perhaps an enabler.

Yuch!

That is... so very unfair.

Not really. As my sig says, "no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." I find that I don't really fit in with most Mormons I know, and that can be very difficult. I honestly don't feel as if I can be entirely open with most of the people in my own congregation, for instance. On the other hand, I can't sincerely wish to fit in where I'd only be uncomfortable. I don't want to change who I am, at least not just to have somebody accept me. So, it is what it is.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm in NA and have a similar view of most, not all, theists, as Luis. I do not believe NAs are more intellectually challenging of religion. Perhaps less so as so many american accept religion without any thought, as compared to europeans.

I don't think all theists really think about hiding behind grace, but they find comfort in 'surrendering' to grace rather than grappling with ethical issues.

Like I said to Luis maybe we see the same world but our glasses just color it differently.

 

[Geoff-Allen]

A few more thoughts ...

Human beings are unique amongst God's creatures. We each have an imagination. We have a sophisticated language and literature. We create and enjoy music and songs. We each have the potential for pure, unconditional love. We each have a conscience. We each can experience compassion & kindness & gratitude & wonder & awe. We are able 2 discover some of the secrets of the universe. We each can engage in meditation & prayer and many people are transformed by those practices. That is QUITE a lot 4 evolution 2 explain! As far as I know, no evolutionist has even attempted such an explanation.

From my perspective, it takes a FAR bigger leap of faith 2 believe in evolution than to believe in creation.

I have been re-re-reading the wonderul book "In Six Days" by John Ashton. A great read 4 anyone really interested in the creation/evolution debate. Here's a sample -

"I also realized that there was no simple explanation for the evolution of the information content which is found in living systems."

by A. J. Monty White

Yes, the amount of information stored in EACH molecule of DNA is absolutely mind-blowing! The question remains how did it get there?

Have a good one!

 

[s2a]

Greetings one & all!

Hope we're all well & happy.

Here are just a few of my thoughts - make of them what you will.

I used to be an atheist. I wasn't your average atheist either. I was a hard-core atheist. I used to say things like the following:

"If god really wants 2 punish me, he should send me 2 heaven. The thought of spending eternity with god & all his fawning sycophants is MUCH more than I can stomach!"

"Anyone who needs a crutch like religion 2 get through life doesn't deserve 2 live!"

"If god can reveal himself 2 a select few and remove ALL doubt in their minds then why not just reveal himself 2 everyone? It is monstrously unfair!"

"People would treat each other FAR better if they were genuinely happy within themselves."

"Normality is a sexually-transmitted disease!"

So, I spent most of my adult life as a very angry, cynical atheist. If you had suggested to me that I would get right into meditation & reading books like "Conversations with God" & treating everyone with kindness & compassion ... well ... I would have absolutely laughed in your face!

You may be wondering what-on-earth happened 2 change my mind. Well, I had a religious experience on a psych ward! I thought I would be the VERY last person on this planet 2 have such an experience. I have written a LOT about that experience - may share it in this thread if I feel so inclined ...

These are a few of my thoughts about atheism -

If those who believe in a deity are "mistaken" or "deluded", they are still FAR better off than the atheists. That MUST be infuriating! It was 4 me when I was an atheist.
Yes! So MANY people's lives have been transformed by belief in God. If that is merely a "delusion" then that is far MORE amazing than if there actually is a God!
If life is merely a series of "accidents", then there is ABSOLUTELY no reason 2 imagine that things should be any better. The world is actually FAR better than you would expect from an unplanned "accident"!

If the atheists are correct and life is just some "glorious accident", then people's thoughts & opinions & beliefs are also accidents. So any debate is absolutely pointless. It is literally impossible 2 tell who might be "right" and who might be "wrong"!

If the atheists are correct, then life is a real "lottery" and whether you experience love & happiness is merely a lottery - fairly depressing 2 contemplate!
So what DO I currently believe ...

I don't subscribe 2 any one religion. I try to take the very best from ALL religions.
In theory all religions should tend 2 make people kinder & more compassionate.
For example, if we merely followed the golden rule, it would utterly transform life on this planet!

Search for Zen habits golden rule.

I also love this advice from the Dalai Lama. He advises us to perform experiments on our own minds. This means observing your thoughts as they come & go and discovering which thoughts lead to peace of mind and which thoughts disturb your peace of mind. From my own personal experience, I have found that peace of mind comes from thoughts of compassion, forgiveness, kindness & gratitude.


For more wisdom from the Dalai Lama, try this site -

Quotes by His Holiness the Dalai lama

I believe that gratitude is one of the keys 2 genuine happiness. For more on this subject, try the following search:

Zen habits gratitude

If life is an accident then people's beliefs are also an accident. There is absolutely no reason 2 think that one accidental belief system is any better than any other accidental belief system.

We ALL have belief systems - even atheists - it would be nearly impossible 2 function in the world without some belief system. We have beiefs about love, happiness, right & wrong, how best 2 treat people etc etc. How do we determine whether any particular belief is correct? There is NO way of objectively proving whether a belief is "correct" or "incorrect". That is precisely why there are SO many different belief systems!

So, the question isn't whether your beliefs are "right" or "wrong" but whether they bring you peace of mind. If not, then why on earth cling 2 them?

The rest of God's creatures seem 2 function perfectly well without any beliefs. Only humans have the capacity 2 speculate about a God. I find this highly significant. That's a quantum leap that is pretty tough 2 explain in evolutionary terms!

Science does a good job of explaining the physical universe but it has its limits. Science cannot explain why we experience love & happiness & compassion & kindness & gratitude & awe & wonder.

In fact! If you really want 2 drive someone nuts, just keep asking the why question over & over. No matter what his respones is, just keep asking "But why is that the case?" You very quickly arrive at a point where all you can say is "I don't know" or "It's a mystery."

Search for Osho life mystery?

That reminds me of my favourite mantra:

"Once upon a time, I was born into the psychological mysteries of life!"

For mmore mantras, try this search:

Affirmations unconditional love

I believe that meditation can help eliminate negative thoughts & emotions. Some monks meditate for thousands of hours to gain control of their thoughts & emotions and cultivate boundless compassion.

Enlightenement simply means cultivating a constant attitude of unconditional love towards your fellow beings. It's rare but not impossible.

Every human being has exactly the same potential for enlightenment. The big question is how 2 awaken that potential in more people.
For more on this theme, you may like 2 try the following s
earch:
Julie Redstone nature unconditional love

I have noticed that we do tend 2 reserve our fondest thoughts 4 those who agree with us & those who are most like us. I have found that spiritual practices can help us generate kind thoughts towards all beings.

I would by NO means claim 2 have "all the answers" but I definitely enjoy FAR more peace-of-mind than I EVER did while embracing atheism!

I guess there are always mysteries & unanswered questions no matter what you believe!

Yes! We really ought 2 cultivate compassion 4 those whose belief system provides precious little REAL comfort!

Responding with love in every situation can be quite the challenge! The trick is 2 be grateful 4 the challenge.

Here's a couple of books I recommend for the curious ...

"The Mastery of Love" by Don Miguel Ruiz
"Happiness" by Matthieu Ricard

"Emissary of Light" by James Twyman - the first book 2 open my eyes as to what real love is all about!

"The Only Thing That Matters" by Neale Donald Walsch

"In Six Days" by John Ashton

"The Pleiadian Workbook" by Amorah Quan Yin

"The Lost Art of compassion" by Lorne Ladner
That's probly enough for the moment. Feel free 2 disagree with anything I have said

Have a good one!

Good for you.

Enjoy.

One element of counsel:

Do not confuse humanistic hope with wishes or magic. If we can go that far, then wish for whatever you please, and we silent by-standers will hope as we please...expecting nothing...but working for change that may one day matter.

 

[Majikthise]

Your fixation with what god can or cant do indicates to me that you were never really an atheist.

 

[Amechania]

Your fixation with what god can or cant do indicates to me that you were never really an atheist.

Yeah I brought that up about 40 posts ago.

 

[Majikthise]

Yeah I brought that up about 40 posts ago.

Then it bears repeating.

 

[Amechania]

Then it bears repeating.

Indeed it does.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Indeed it does.

Your fixation with what god can or cant do indicates to me that you were never really an atheist.

Ahem...

 

[LuisDantas]

Like I said to Luis maybe we see the same world but our glasses just color it differently.

This is a rare occasion when you are clearly more pessimistic than me.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow, I'm a little taken aback by your thoughts on most theists.

I don't see that at all. Could Brazil be quite different than North America?

Religion is actually one of the fields where the two countries seem to be most alike, largely because Protestant churches of American origin have been very succesfull in spreading here.

Or do we just look through different color glasses? I've been in Central America and can see how more simple and accepting of religion they are (obviously I can be accused of over-generalizing).

That is a fair statement to make of Brazil as well. Not sure that is a good thing, though.

Never been to Brazil. I can generalize again and say North Americans are more intellectually challenging of religion.

Some are. Some make a point of not being.

'Spiritual but not religious' is often heard; morality (even if liberal morality) is part and parcel of spirituality.

Claims of morality are, particularly when morality is lost or absent.

 

[TheGunShoj]

For me personally, the very idea that we will vanish into dust the moment we die and never see those who are dear to us again is frightening. I could not live believing that to be the case.

Of course, I have many reasons (and evidence) to assure me that is not the case.

I would like to hear this evidence, considering everything we know about the brain indicates that we will cease to exist after death.

It sounds to me like you're scared to face reality so you cling to a belief because it's more comfortable.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay, but explain why. Given a general enough definition of God, wouldn't what I said make sense? I need you to explain your reasoning.

A Chevy guy and a Ford guy may both be car guys, but it can be harder to convince a died-in-the-wool Chevy guy to drive a Ford than someone who doesn't really care about cars.

I see it as kinda like that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

morality (even if liberal morality) is part and parcel of spirituality.

In what sense are you using the term "spirituality"? I can't think of any normal definition where what you say is true.