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A few thoughts from a former atheist

thau

Well-Known Member
I would like to hear this evidence, considering everything we know about the brain indicates that we will cease to exist after death.

It sounds to me like you're scared to face reality so you cling to a belief because it's more comfortable.


I bet you would like to hear this evidence.

But modern day psychology and philosophy listens but cannot hear. Is that not what Jesus said in the Bible? Is that not how all the evidence is treated by intellectual naysayers? Isn't it always mass hysteria or hallucinations attributed to the eye witnesses? Isn't it always fakes attributed to weeping statues because you found one zealot concocted one somewhere in Texas? Isn't it always the Shroud is fake because of some very easily challenged carbon dating test that many scientists have now rejected and are at least honest enough to say they cannot explain these fantastic qualities on this image on this cloth? Isn't it always "it's only a dying brain" when thousands come back from the grave seeing and knowing heavenly matters? Even the neurological agnostic doctor who went through it himself and knows a virtually dead brain cannot produce such imagery became convinced, but still you reject that expert.

Jesus also said: "An evil age is eager for a sign but no sign will be given it except that of Jonah." What he meant was they will reject every sign given it and hence act as though no sign were given them. What he meant was, I have given you enough and that is my crucified and resurrected self. Like Jonah in the whale for three days, I was in the tomb for three days. Humble yourself, think wisely, and see and hear.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
A Chevy guy and a Ford guy may both be car guys, but it can be harder to convince a died-in-the-wool Chevy guy to drive a Ford than someone who doesn't really care about cars.

I see it as kinda like that.
I still say that the fact that the Chevy guy and the Ford guy have one passion in common that the person who doesn't care one way or the other doesn't. Sure, either of the guys who are into cars may have much more in common with the guy who doesn't care about cars at all than they may have with each other, but when the Chevy guy says, "I love my car!" and the Ford guy says, "I love my car!", the guy who doesn't care about cars just shrugs his shoulders and thinks, "Whatever. Cars are stupid. Let's talk about books."

My initial statement was, "Any belief in God is closer to my belief than a total disbelief in God." And I'm not budging!!! :D
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
To Luis and Penquin:

morality (even if liberal morality) is part and parcel of spirituality.

In what sense are you using the term "spirituality"? I can't think of any normal definition where what you say is true.
As in Webster's dictionary

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty noun \ˌspir-i-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē\

: the quality or state of being concerned with religion or religious matters : the quality or state of being spiritual
 
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TheGunShoj

Active Member
I bet you would like to hear this evidence.

But modern day psychology and philosophy listens but cannot hear. Is that not what Jesus said in the Bible? Is that not how all the evidence is treated by intellectual naysayers? Isn't it always mass hysteria or hallucinations attributed to the eye witnesses? Isn't it always fakes attributed to weeping statues because you found one zealot concocted one somewhere in Texas? Isn't it always the Shroud is fake because of some very easily challenged carbon dating test that many scientists have now rejected and are at least honest enough to say they cannot explain these fantastic qualities on this image on this cloth? Isn't it always "it's only a dying brain" when thousands come back from the grave seeing and knowing heavenly matters? Even the neurological agnostic doctor who went through it himself and knows a virtually dead brain cannot produce such imagery became convinced, but still you reject that expert.

Jesus also said: "An evil age is eager for a sign but no sign will be given it except that of Jonah." What he meant was they will reject every sign given it and hence act as though no sign were given them. What he meant was, I have given you enough and that is my crucified and resurrected self. Like Jonah in the whale for three days, I was in the tomb for three days. Humble yourself, think wisely, and see and hear.

What on earth are you babbling about? Please provide sources for the few parts that actually made sense such as the expert with an NDE and credible scientists rejecting carbon dating and thus the age of the earth.

Here's a fairly recent study on NDEs.

A new scientific explanation for near-death experiences
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To Luis and Penquin:




As in Webster's dictionary

spir·i·tu·al·i·ty noun \ˌspir-i-chə-ˈwa-lə-tē\

: the quality or state of being concerned with religion or religious matters : the quality or state of being spiritual
If you really do just mean "religious" when you say "spiritual", then I disagree even more. Morality is quite independent of religiosity.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
What on earth are you babbling about? Please provide sources for the few parts that actually made sense such as the expert with an NDE and credible scientists rejecting carbon dating and thus the age of the earth.

Here's a fairly recent study on NDEs.

A new scientific explanation for near-death experiences


It is babble if you did not follow. My apologies.

My "rant" was directed at no one in particular, but all high minded scoffers in general.

It stemmed from the cynical "show me all this evidence for God you speak of" kind of statement I have heard a hundred times.

It has been shown a hundred times by me and others. It has been rejected for the flimsiest reasons, IMO. So I guess I am at the point I no longer am enthused.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I still say that the fact that the Chevy guy and the Ford guy have one passion in common that the person who doesn't care one way or the other doesn't. Sure, either of the guys who are into cars may have much more in common with the guy who doesn't care about cars at all than they may have with each other, but when the Chevy guy says, "I love my car!" and the Ford guy says, "I love my car!", the guy who doesn't care about cars just shrugs his shoulders and thinks, "Whatever. Cars are stupid. Let's talk about books."

My initial statement was, "Any belief in God is closer to my belief than a total disbelief in God." And I'm not budging!!! :D

Another way to look at what I was thinking of: I'd say that, on average, people who believe as strongly in their religions as you do in yours are more likely to hate your religion than someone who doesn't care about religion at all.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Another way to look at what I was thinking of: I'd say that, on average, people who believe as strongly in their religions as you do in yours are more likely to hate your religion than someone who doesn't care about religion at all.
While that's probably true, that wasn't the point I was attempting to address by my initial comment.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Please provide sources for the few parts that actually made sense such as the expert with an NDE

Like you're going to seriously consider a source that goes against your position or are you just going to look for ways to attack it? Thau is saying he's losing enthusiasm for that kind of endless debate.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I still say that the fact that the Chevy guy and the Ford guy have one passion in common that the person who doesn't care one way or the other doesn't. Sure, either of the guys who are into cars may have much more in common with the guy who doesn't care about cars at all than they may have with each other, but when the Chevy guy says, "I love my car!" and the Ford guy says, "I love my car!", the guy who doesn't care about cars just shrugs his shoulders and thinks, "Whatever. Cars are stupid. Let's talk about books."

My initial statement was, "Any belief in God is closer to my belief than a total disbelief in God." And I'm not budging!!! :D

Wouldn't you agree that you and I are closer to one another in our moral and spiritual beliefs than, say, you and Osama bin Laden?
 

TheGunShoj

Active Member
Like you're going to seriously consider a source that goes against your position or are you just going to look for ways to attack it? Thau is saying he's losing enthusiasm for that kind of endless debate.

Yes I would consider it, and I don't appreciate you insinuating that I would be dishonest. If I did find a way to "attack" it, wouldn't my argument stand or fall on it's own merit? Of course if I could find nothing legitimately erroneous within, I would look a fool to attack the evidence, would I not?
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Yes I would consider it, and I don't appreciate you insinuating that I would be dishonest. If I did find a way to "attack" it, wouldn't my argument stand or fall on it's own merit? Of course if I could find nothing legitimately erroneous within, I would look a fool to attack the evidence, would I not?


Allow me to provide one example of “evidence” of God that I maintain is factual. The skeptics counter-explanations fail to impress. This is Mary, the Virgin, the mother of Jesus. This is an apparition that does not stand on its own. It is but one of a thousand reasons God is made known. (IMO)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

April 1968 , Zeitoun,Egypt: An impoverished village/suburb outside of Cairo. Muslim workers notice a womanly, icy figure on top of a Christian Coptic cathedral at midnight. It is the Virgin Mary. It causes a major stir. For the next 4 months Mary appears on top of that cathedral blessing the crowd, moving about freely on the domed roof tops, bowing to the cross, but never speaking. She is icy but fluent. She appears only at night around 20 times over the next several months. The crowds are enormous, as many as 50,000 a night hoping for an appearance. The vast majority are Muslims of course. On the nights Mary does appear most see her, but many others do not. It's God's way, the spirit blows where it may. But over 300,000 are estimated to have seen Mary on at least one occasion. Large numbers. The final apparition does not occur until1971.

The visions are accompanied by unidentified lights, colorful plumes of smoke, incense and dovelike birds flying at dizzying speeds in the night whenever Mary appears. All in the crowd witness these accompanying signs. Who can explain away that phenomenon as something natural? No authorities or investigations have ever been able to explain the source for the lights, colors, smoke, incense or birds. Photographs are taken and most do not develop. Yet later some do develop but not with great clarity. Again, God’s ways are His own. Mary’s appearance is shown on Egyptian TV on one occasion. Abdul Nassar witnesses this apparition for himself. It is reported at least twice in the NYTimes in May and August of 1968. But secular America is too wrapped up in political uprisings and hippie movements to notice or care.

The Spirit blows where it may and appears as it may. You can deny it, but I embrace it.


http://angels.about.com/od/MiraculousMaryApparitions/a/Saint-Marys-Appearance-In-Zeitoun-Egypt.htm

The Apparitions of the Blessed Holy Virgin Mary to Millions in Zeitoun, Egypt

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitngal.htm

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/engnews.htm

Of course if you leave it to wretched Wikipedia they almost always seekout the skeptic who saw nothing and make that the prominent criticism and/orprofessional opinion. Total garbage inthe face of all the evidence and hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Allow me to provide one example of “evidence” of God that I maintain is factual. The skeptics counter-explanations fail to impress. This is Mary, the Virgin, the mother of Jesus. This is an apparition that does not stand on its own. It is but one of a thousand reasons God is made known. (IMO)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

April 1968 , Zeitoun,Egypt: An impoverished village/suburb outside of Cairo. Muslim workers notice a womanly, icy figure on top of a Christian Coptic cathedral at midnight. It is the Virgin Mary. It causes a major stir. For the next 4 months Mary appears on top of that cathedral blessing the crowd, moving about freely on the domed roof tops, bowing to the cross, but never speaking. She is icy but fluent. She appears only at night around 20 times over the next several months. The crowds are enormous, as many as 50,000 a night hoping for an appearance. The vast majority are Muslims of course. On the nights Mary does appear most see her, but many others do not. It's God's way, the spirit blows where it may. But over 300,000 are estimated to have seen Mary on at least one occasion. Large numbers. The final apparition does not occur until1971.

The visions are accompanied by unidentified lights, colorful plumes of smoke, incense and dovelike birds flying at dizzying speeds in the night whenever Mary appears. All in the crowd witness these accompanying signs. Who can explain away that phenomenon as something natural? No authorities or investigations have ever been able to explain the source for the lights, colors, smoke, incense or birds. Photographs are taken and most do not develop. Yet later some do develop but not with great clarity. Again, God’s ways are His own. Mary’s appearance is shown on Egyptian TV on one occasion. Abdul Nassar witnesses this apparition for himself. It is reported at least twice in the NYTimes in May and August of 1968. But secular America is too wrapped up in political uprisings and hippie movements to notice or care.

The Spirit blows where it may and appears as it may. You can deny it, but I embrace it.


http://angels.about.com/od/MiraculousMaryApparitions/a/Saint-Marys-Appearance-In-Zeitoun-Egypt.htm

The Apparitions of the Blessed Holy Virgin Mary to Millions in Zeitoun, Egypt

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitngal.htm

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/engnews.htm

Of course if you leave it to wretched Wikipedia they almost always seekout the skeptic who saw nothing and make that the prominent criticism and/orprofessional opinion. Total garbage inthe face of all the evidence and hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

So... sktechy evidence of an apparition that - even if the reports were genuine - could have been easily faked? Hardly compelling.
 

TheGunShoj

Active Member
Allow me to provide one example of “evidence” of God that I maintain is factual. The skeptics counter-explanations fail to impress. This is Mary, the Virgin, the mother of Jesus. This is an apparition that does not stand on its own. It is but one of a thousand reasons God is made known. (IMO)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

April 1968 , Zeitoun,Egypt: An impoverished village/suburb outside of Cairo. Muslim workers notice a womanly, icy figure on top of a Christian Coptic cathedral at midnight. It is the Virgin Mary. It causes a major stir. For the next 4 months Mary appears on top of that cathedral blessing the crowd, moving about freely on the domed roof tops, bowing to the cross, but never speaking. She is icy but fluent. She appears only at night around 20 times over the next several months. The crowds are enormous, as many as 50,000 a night hoping for an appearance. The vast majority are Muslims of course. On the nights Mary does appear most see her, but many others do not. It's God's way, the spirit blows where it may. But over 300,000 are estimated to have seen Mary on at least one occasion. Large numbers. The final apparition does not occur until1971.

The visions are accompanied by unidentified lights, colorful plumes of smoke, incense and dovelike birds flying at dizzying speeds in the night whenever Mary appears. All in the crowd witness these accompanying signs. Who can explain away that phenomenon as something natural? No authorities or investigations have ever been able to explain the source for the lights, colors, smoke, incense or birds. Photographs are taken and most do not develop. Yet later some do develop but not with great clarity. Again, God’s ways are His own. Mary’s appearance is shown on Egyptian TV on one occasion. Abdul Nassar witnesses this apparition for himself. It is reported at least twice in the NYTimes in May and August of 1968. But secular America is too wrapped up in political uprisings and hippie movements to notice or care.

The Spirit blows where it may and appears as it may. You can deny it, but I embrace it.


http://angels.about.com/od/MiraculousMaryApparitions/a/Saint-Marys-Appearance-In-Zeitoun-Egypt.htm

The Apparitions of the Blessed Holy Virgin Mary to Millions in Zeitoun, Egypt

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitngal.htm

http://www.zeitun-eg.org/engnews.htm

Of course if you leave it to wretched Wikipedia they almost always seekout the skeptic who saw nothing and make that the prominent criticism and/orprofessional opinion. Total garbage inthe face of all the evidence and hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

A question. Who determined and by what method that it was the virgin mary? In the excerpt, it just asserts that this is the case.

Secondly, there are several more questions such as why photographs wouldn't turn out and why not everyone that was gathered to witness this were able to and those are explained away as "oh well, it's just God's way" How convenient.
 
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