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A few words from the good Dr.
- Thread starter Sireal
- Start date
Kori Houghton
Restricted
What does it say? Too dark and blurry to read, no link.
EDIT: saved the image and looked at it after clean up with my photo editor.
Expanded quotation here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yhMbxoLsJ9QC&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=%22gaggle+of+gods+and+goddesses%22&source=bl&ots=GESYzofazW&sig=AOrZTgBPGHE8dX1-1hjuYZiteEw&hl=en&ei=_5-5TtX7MYWXhQeAgLHKBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22gaggle%20of%20gods%20and%20goddesses%22&f=false
EDIT: saved the image and looked at it after clean up with my photo editor.
Expanded quotation here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yhMbxoLsJ9QC&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=%22gaggle+of+gods+and+goddesses%22&source=bl&ots=GESYzofazW&sig=AOrZTgBPGHE8dX1-1hjuYZiteEw&hl=en&ei=_5-5TtX7MYWXhQeAgLHKBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22gaggle%20of%20gods%20and%20goddesses%22&f=false
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"From our point of view, it really makes no difference if you pray to a father god or a mother goddess, or an entire gaggle of gods and goddesses. You are still wishing the same thing, you are still wishing to be included, you are still wishing to be accepted. The Setian rejects the submergence of the Self." - Dr. Michael A. Aquino
In other words RHPathers such as Christians seem to need a sense of belonging, to be accepted by others, to be approved by others, to be endorsed by others within a herd mentallity form of society. Whereas, the Setian/Satanist/LHPather does not need nor desire acceptance or approval of profane society as we are individuals distinct and seperate from it by virtue of our very existence. Of course, it is good to once in a while receive recognition by ones Magical peirs. However, the LHP Initiate must eventually come to terms with the fact that he/she as an isolate self is basically alone on their own individual Path of Darkness. Yes, at times this can be a burden on the Magician, but the true Sorcerer always knows going forward that he must accept the pleasures and the pains of his unique existence. For me, it was a part of my eternal Oath of Re-Birth.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
In other words RHPathers such as Christians seem to need a sense of belonging, to be accepted by others, to be approved by others, to be endorsed by others within a herd mentallity form of society. Whereas, the Setian/Satanist/LHPather does not need nor desire acceptance or approval of profane society as we are individuals distinct and seperate from it by virtue of our very existence. Of course, it is good to once in a while receive recognition by ones Magical peirs. However, the LHP Initiate must eventually come to terms with the fact that he/she as an isolate self is basically alone on their own individual Path of Darkness. Yes, at times this can be a burden on the Magician, but the true Sorcerer always knows going forward that he must accept the pleasures and the pains of his unique existence. For me, it was a part of my eternal Oath of Re-Birth.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
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Kori Houghton
Restricted
Sometimes people leave you
halfway through the wood.
Others may deceive you.
You decide what's good.
You decide alone.
But no one is alone. --Stephen Sondheim, INTO THE WOODS
halfway through the wood.
Others may deceive you.
You decide what's good.
You decide alone.
But no one is alone. --Stephen Sondheim, INTO THE WOODS
Kori what you are expressing is true in a sense. For instance those of us who are members of a group or organization have a certain outlet where we can correspond with and receive guidance from like minded individuals. It is also my experience that when asked with Truth in one's Heart Set does come forth and does guide the Initiate at times in his/her Work on the Path of Xeper. However, ultimately, with the dark light of Set's wisdom illuminating the way, we must venture our unique Paths on our own.
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
Xeper.
/Adramelek\
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Kori Houghton
Restricted
It seems like a paradox to me, and I like that!
In a way it could be seen as a paradox and actually, yes, certain LHP philosophies do have their share of paradoxes.
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Daelach
Setian
I bet.. that's why they make orders and groups for pondering TOGETHER about the loneliness of the LHP
Daelach
Setian
concerning the original posting and the quote of Michael Aquino (a new reply for this one on purpose)..
a new path is only new to the first one walking it.. that's why I'm not with you. Because it wouldn't be Setian to me.
You believed in creating a path in terms of an organised way - the TOS is the result. I believe in disorganisation. When it's chaos vs. order, usually and ultimately, the chaos wins. Because it's better organised
"one must still have chaos within oneself, to give birth to a dancing star." (Nietzsche) And I pay attention to my chaos.. since what would it be that a creator could create from, if not the chaos?
a new path is only new to the first one walking it.. that's why I'm not with you. Because it wouldn't be Setian to me.
You believed in creating a path in terms of an organised way - the TOS is the result. I believe in disorganisation. When it's chaos vs. order, usually and ultimately, the chaos wins. Because it's better organised
"one must still have chaos within oneself, to give birth to a dancing star." (Nietzsche)
And I pay attention to my chaos.. since what would it be that a creator could create from, if not the chaos?
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Kori Houghton
Restricted
I bet.. that's why they make orders and groups for pondering TOGETHER about the loneliness of the LHP
Exactly.
In reality, all humans experience loneliness. Not just those on the LHP.
Daelach
Setian
In fact, this is inevitable, by design.. never, we can see the world with the eyes of another. Because this existence here has separatedness as a basic construction principle, and we are here to experience it this way.
I can compare this because I have experienced.. let's say, other modes of existence where such a separation would not even have a meaning.
I guess it's all fine with the self and so on - unless the cocoon becomes to small for an emerging consciousness. Then the self becomes a kind of prison. That's why in the original LHP (by and large), the difference to the RHP was only in the means, not the aim. Because this original LHP was geared towards being able to make that shift, leaving the "self" behind like a young bird leaves the eggshells behind.
That's a misunderstanding often found in LHP forums. The reason to leave the self behind is NOT something like an inferiority complex, quite the other way round. It's just that the consciousness has grown too much to fit into such a limited concept which means that keeping it would prevent further growth.
I guess it's a matter of "think big" here.. and it's not easy to even temporarily leave the conceptual bounds of this kind of consciousness here. Because the eggshells react with panic to the idea of being left behind. A helpful thought on such occasions is something like "if all that here were really so great, then I wouldn't sit here trying to overcome the frontiers." Cynical, but it works
Some Japanese monk was asked what it was like to be enlighted. He answered that before, he sat there and drank a cup of tea. And afterwards, he sat there, drinking a cup of tea.
I found that story a bit disappointing.. until I found a new understanding (from pratice, not from theory). Yes, it's still all the same as before.. only that it's completely different. But that's something words cannot express. Except to those who have lived it already, and in this case, there's no need for the words.
xeper beyond yourself! (doesn't work in written English.. imagine it spoken, then you'll get what I mean)
Sireal
Setian
What makes you think Setian Initiation is in any way organized for the individual Initiate?
The Temple revolves around the word Xeper-to come into being-as your Self. organizing that would be, as Dr. Aquino likes to put it, "herding cats", not going to happen. It is a common enough misconception though and one sometimes held by former Initiates that were looking for somewhere to "belong", and I'm not saying that a strong sense camaraderie is not possible but that is a different dialogue altogether. Every Setian is in complete control of their own Initiation, and I strongly disagree that the ToS is organized, except as a reference tool, one is constantly laying new track individually and if that is not the case then one is not around long.
The Temple is a school, framework, that holds an excellent body of finite, useful Initiatory information and experience that individuals have access and to which each Initiate brings their own wisdom, preference and potentially adds to that body of knowledge. What you do with it and how You organize that is up to you.
Initiation does not happen in a vacuum, nor from reading a book, it happens mouth to ear.
The Temple revolves around the word Xeper-to come into being-as your Self. organizing that would be, as Dr. Aquino likes to put it, "herding cats", not going to happen. It is a common enough misconception though and one sometimes held by former Initiates that were looking for somewhere to "belong", and I'm not saying that a strong sense camaraderie is not possible but that is a different dialogue altogether. Every Setian is in complete control of their own Initiation, and I strongly disagree that the ToS is organized, except as a reference tool, one is constantly laying new track individually and if that is not the case then one is not around long.
The Temple is a school, framework, that holds an excellent body of finite, useful Initiatory information and experience that individuals have access and to which each Initiate brings their own wisdom, preference and potentially adds to that body of knowledge. What you do with it and how You organize that is up to you.
Initiation does not happen in a vacuum, nor from reading a book, it happens mouth to ear.
concerning the original posting and the quote of Michael Aquino (a new reply for this one on purpose)..
a new path is only new to the first one walking it.. that's why I'm not with you. Because it wouldn't be Setian to me.
You believed in creating a path in terms of an organised way - the TOS is the result. I believe in disorganisation. When it's chaos vs. order, usually and ultimately, the chaos wins. Because it's better organised
"one must still have chaos within oneself, to give birth to a dancing star." (Nietzsche)
Hagbard
Member
I would say, from my experience, that initiation does not occur mouth to ear. Initiation occurs and is driven from within. No one can give it to me, or pass it to me, or explain it to me...even if their mouth rests close to my ear. Initiation into a certain group..for example a Masonic Lodge, requires a mouth to ear component. Personal initiation though, in my experience, comes from no where and no one but the self.
Kori Houghton
Restricted
The part of the initiation process which comes from a teacher or mentor to the candidate is, in my experience, little more than a hint, a nudge...something very much like a little piece of a puzzle. The candidate will either 'get it' or they won't. The realization of its meaning may be instantaneous or take years to fall into place.
In my experience, these hints can be given anywhere, including in an internet forum where it can be read by the general public. The only type of group which is concerned with "mouth to ear" is one, IMO, that seeks control over the candidate to some extent beyond assisting them in attaining initiation.
In my experience, these hints can be given anywhere, including in an internet forum where it can be read by the general public. The only type of group which is concerned with "mouth to ear" is one, IMO, that seeks control over the candidate to some extent beyond assisting them in attaining initiation.
Daelach
Setian
Plus that Aquino himself didn't need the TOS framework and recognition procedures since he was the one who founded it. One could argue that he had gotten up in the COS (a doubtful argument in itself), but even in this case, the argument only moves over to Lavey.
And no, the step from the I* to II* is not up to the initiate. It's up to the priesthood. If the candidate does not comply to the priesthood's standards, he will get thrown out. The application information doesn't allow for misunderstanding here, it's clear enough. Of course this is the wish for belonging. Funny enough that these Setians see this wish in all other groups, but not their own. Lack of self-reflection, I guess.
Now, I don't say that doing it all alone is the best way; in fact, many things are easier together. First and foremost because one won't see one's own blind sports (by definition). An organisation has the advantage that it allows for getting into contact more easily. The downside is that the blind sports then occur on a collective level, and the more closedly the organisation operates, the more this becomes of a problem. This has nothing to do with the TOS specifically, it's a systematic problem. You'll end up in group thinking.
An example of the group think is the whole perception of Set the TOS has. The rational knowledge stuff is IMO much more related to Thoth than to Set, and the aristocratic drive fits rather Horus than Set. The Bacchian side (including the use of substances!) is completely excluded. And it won't ever be included because those running the show and setting up the rules won't allow it. If you want to learn about that side of Set, you won't find much in the TOS and will have to go other ways. Yes, that's dangerous.. but that has always been the downside of the original LHP. The RHP methods have been established for good reasons, buying safety at the price of speed.
Other branches have the same group think problem. In science, this is solved by the peer review process. That's why scientists don't keep their things secret. At least, those working in public science; those working in companies tend to end up in the "not invented here"-syndrome. In this case, the review happens on the market where the products are launched. Maybe you know the phenomenon of "process becomes product" - the processes a company is using will largely predetermine their products. That's why you have things like internet capable TVs with unsuable browsers. Because the process was that the marketing defined that "internet capability" should be advertised - instead of the tech department deciding that is should be usable for internet. Or video recorders which are so complicated to use that it's really a hassle. The reason was the the tech department had the last word in the design - there was no usability lab or something. That's why Apple products have a superior usability. Because their processes don't revolve around flashy ads, but around the end user experience.
In the arts of war, there are contests on whether the stuff works or not, that's called war.
And no, the step from the I* to II* is not up to the initiate. It's up to the priesthood. If the candidate does not comply to the priesthood's standards, he will get thrown out. The application information doesn't allow for misunderstanding here, it's clear enough. Of course this is the wish for belonging. Funny enough that these Setians see this wish in all other groups, but not their own. Lack of self-reflection, I guess.
Now, I don't say that doing it all alone is the best way; in fact, many things are easier together. First and foremost because one won't see one's own blind sports (by definition). An organisation has the advantage that it allows for getting into contact more easily. The downside is that the blind sports then occur on a collective level, and the more closedly the organisation operates, the more this becomes of a problem. This has nothing to do with the TOS specifically, it's a systematic problem. You'll end up in group thinking.
An example of the group think is the whole perception of Set the TOS has. The rational knowledge stuff is IMO much more related to Thoth than to Set, and the aristocratic drive fits rather Horus than Set. The Bacchian side (including the use of substances!) is completely excluded. And it won't ever be included because those running the show and setting up the rules won't allow it. If you want to learn about that side of Set, you won't find much in the TOS and will have to go other ways. Yes, that's dangerous.. but that has always been the downside of the original LHP. The RHP methods have been established for good reasons, buying safety at the price of speed.
Other branches have the same group think problem. In science, this is solved by the peer review process. That's why scientists don't keep their things secret. At least, those working in public science; those working in companies tend to end up in the "not invented here"-syndrome. In this case, the review happens on the market where the products are launched. Maybe you know the phenomenon of "process becomes product" - the processes a company is using will largely predetermine their products. That's why you have things like internet capable TVs with unsuable browsers. Because the process was that the marketing defined that "internet capability" should be advertised - instead of the tech department deciding that is should be usable for internet. Or video recorders which are so complicated to use that it's really a hassle. The reason was the the tech department had the last word in the design - there was no usability lab or something. That's why Apple products have a superior usability. Because their processes don't revolve around flashy ads, but around the end user experience.
In the arts of war, there are contests on whether the stuff works or not, that's called war.
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Kori Houghton
Restricted
Rather than going back to edit my previous post, I thought I would add this to clarify and expand.
When I said that groups which transmit ideas 'mouth to ear' are seeking some control over initiates or members, I did not mean in the sense of some whacked out 1970s mind control cult with de-programmers dogging its every activity.
I meant something more like the continued existence of the group becoming more important on some level(s) than helping aspirants gain initiation. Groups like these have a lot of energy and effort invested in their egregora, and it can seem (at least to outsiders) that these groups function very much like a 'revolving door' corporation with a continually changing staff on the lower levels of the organizational chart. To preserve the group in the form favored by its leaders, it is just easier to move someone out once they acquire any potential influence that could lead to change.
When I said that groups which transmit ideas 'mouth to ear' are seeking some control over initiates or members, I did not mean in the sense of some whacked out 1970s mind control cult with de-programmers dogging its every activity.
I meant something more like the continued existence of the group becoming more important on some level(s) than helping aspirants gain initiation. Groups like these have a lot of energy and effort invested in their egregora, and it can seem (at least to outsiders) that these groups function very much like a 'revolving door' corporation with a continually changing staff on the lower levels of the organizational chart. To preserve the group in the form favored by its leaders, it is just easier to move someone out once they acquire any potential influence that could lead to change.
Daelach
Setian
That's quite normal and not even specific to occult groups.. I have seen such things happen in business life, too. Brilliant people aren't hired because the boss fears that they might sit on his chair one day. The larger and older the company, the more you'll see such stuff. So I guess it's normal group dynamics.
MacKinnon
Member
From my experience it's very much the responsibility of the I* to put in the Work towards attaining II* recognition. And since the initiation of any individual is of course a very personal and unique thing, it would be absurd to suggest that there is some kind of "standard" criteria that must be met in addition to a grasp of Setian philosophy.
The Priesthood of course are charged with the duty of Recognising anyone who is demonstrating Adepthood, but that cannot happen if the person is unable to demonstrate this. Its not always easy to tell straight away whether or not somebody is capable of attaining the II*, but it's also very obvious why when somebody does not.
It's rather risky to assume that every person within the TOS has the same perception of anything, let alone something like Set. It's for that reason that it is incorrect to conclude that any particular aspect of Set is off-limits to explore, debate or discuss.
Daelach
Setian
Any group must have some kind of boundary - because things in this existence here are not only defined by what they are, but also by what they are not. The TOS wouldn't be able to exist in this kind of existence if there were no established criteria. The alternative would then be arbitrariness/favoritism, and that sounds even less favorable, doesn't it?
You see.. this is the reason why I don't opt for a group. The whole point of the LHP is, so to say, to include the heterogenous factor. Means.. that what is different. Condensed in the image of Set, the Stranger. But you can't include the stranger based upon common traits - because then it isn't alien anymore. To me, it would destroy the element of the stranger. And you are most welcome to disagree because, as I said, it is in separateness, a special feature of this existence, that we are united. Hope this makes some sense to you.. or maybe non-sense, just as good
You see.. I don't care about some priesthood. I have no need for them (except, of course, as maybe interesting individuals) since it isn't by recognition that I'm Setian.. it's just kinship. But not necessarily with a priesthood.
Hell, I don't even really care about whether Set recognises me.. that would be his problem, not mine. I don't expect anything from Set.. and I abhor the Xtian way of praying and believing in order to get some paradise and stuff. That isn't love or kinship, that's just making a deal. I'd be interested in your opinion on that one. At least, if it isn't indiscrete. Well, I don't think the question is indiscrete.. but the answer might be.
Hm yes, I see your point. Potential is a good thing.. but unless it gets made real, it stays potential. Which makes it just as unreal in this reality as if it didn't exist.
So while the pass criteria might be difficult to tell, there must at least be fail criteria. No blaming here - otherwise, the group could not exist.
Identity or difference depend on the point of view. For a Causacian, all Chinese look the same.. but not for a Chinese. You may think that there is a great variety, but that might just be rooted in a big similarity which seems so natural that it may have become invisible to your eyes. But not to the eyes of a stranger.
Well, you may be right.. or not. It would be most unwise for an open organisation to openly explore certain aspects, just as the forum rules forbid discussion about certain things I just regard as important to (at least my interpretation of) the LHP. The only problem is.. if such an open organisation publicly doesn't put much store in certain aspects, they won't attract people who are exploring them. Simply because such an organisation doesn't offer something to such people. Guess what kind of people they'll be recruiting
Concerning the wild and Bacchian aspects of Set, off-limits to this forum, probably you know Balanone's website, discouraging such aspects. And for a time, he was speaking officially. Or put it the other way round, if his opinion would have been just a minority, he wouldn't have become spokesman - that's what the HP is.
Especially all that reason stuff, bah. Don't get me wrong, it's IMO a good step in the evolution of consciousness. But that's, in my experience, not Set. Or, more correctly, only a small part. What is the island of reason in the ocean of madness.. reason is copy, madness the original.
Hope this makes some sense to cou; it's your choice. Or.. at least, I hope it is.
MacKinnon
Member
From what I've seen, it's pretty much like this
Does the Initiate understand Setian Philosophy?
Can he apply this in his life and demonstrate success?
Does the Initiate gain from membership within the Temple?
Does the Temple gain from the Initiate?
If the answer to the 1st is no, then it may take a while to come to grips with it. If after 2 years this still hasn't happened, then it's up to the Priesthood to decide whether or not it's worth investing some more time beyond that.
If the answer to the 2nd is no, then it's very likely that they'll leave of their own accord.
If the first two are yes, then it's likely that the second 2 will be yes as well.
Have you considered how your aversion to group thinking, and your beliefs of where that may be applicable within the Temple, without having experienced anything of membership within, could adversely affect your Xeper?
I freely admit there are times when I wonder myself, but it's when I look back at all the Work I have done for myself through my affiliation with the Temple that I see the benefits of my current and continued membership.
Does the Initiate understand Setian Philosophy?
Can he apply this in his life and demonstrate success?
Does the Initiate gain from membership within the Temple?
Does the Temple gain from the Initiate?
If the answer to the 1st is no, then it may take a while to come to grips with it. If after 2 years this still hasn't happened, then it's up to the Priesthood to decide whether or not it's worth investing some more time beyond that.
If the answer to the 2nd is no, then it's very likely that they'll leave of their own accord.
If the first two are yes, then it's likely that the second 2 will be yes as well.
Have you considered how your aversion to group thinking, and your beliefs of where that may be applicable within the Temple, without having experienced anything of membership within, could adversely affect your Xeper?
I freely admit there are times when I wonder myself, but it's when I look back at all the Work I have done for myself through my affiliation with the Temple that I see the benefits of my current and continued membership.