A Formal Proof that if Evil Exists then the Theists' God Does Not

[Gharib]

I will quote Mestemia post because my opinion is described very well through his words:

so it seems man has a choice to do good and to do evil. why is it that if man does something evil then it's God's fault and so he doesn't exist.

 

[9Westy9]

so it seems man has a choice to do good and to do evil. why is it that if man does something evil then it's God's fault and so he doesn't exist.

Because God has the power and desire to stop evil yet doesn't. (on the assumption that he is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent.)

 

[Gharib]

Because God has the power and desire to stop evil yet doesn't. (on the assumption that he is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent.)

why blame God again if it is the man who pulls the trigger to kill an innocent person?

 

[9Westy9]

why blame God again if it is the man who pulls the trigger to kill an innocent person?

premise 1 - God is omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient
premise 2 - Humans commit evil actions that God (from 1) wouldn't approve of
premise 3 - God has both desire and power and foreknowledge to stop these acts
premise 4 - God does nothing to stop these acts
Conclusion - This God cannot/ doesn't exist

As for why blame God If he can somehow exist despite this argument then he's apathetic to suffering. Which is almost as bad as actually committing the acts. In fact for an omnipotent, omniscient being it's even worse

 

[Gharib]

premise 1 - God is omnipotent, benevolent and omniscient
premise 2 - Humans commit evil actions that God (from 1) wouldn't approve of
premise 3 - God has both desire and power and foreknowledge to stop these acts
premise 4 - God does nothing to stop these acts
Conclusion - This God cannot/ doesn't exist

As for why blame God If he can somehow exist despite this argument then he's apathetic to suffering. Which is almost as bad as actually committing the acts. In fact for an omnipotent, omniscient being it's even worse

those who are wronged in this life will have justice on the day of Judgement, those who commit evils will be punished for their evil on the day of Judgement. in islamc belief this life is a test, a test for humans to be good. however, some choose to do bad. to stop them would mean no such test exists, if no such test exists and then people still do bad, then i can understand your view. however, you don't seem to understand mine.

 

[Koldo]

those who are wronged in this life will have justice on the day of Judgement, those who commit evils will be punished for their evil on the day of Judgement. in islamc belief this life is a test, a test for humans to be good. however, some choose to do bad. to stop them would mean no such test exists, if no such test exists and then people still do bad, then i can understand your view. however, you don't seem to understand mine.

And why is there a test?
Why aren't all people born on heavens?

 

[Gharib]

And why is there a test?
Why aren't all people born on heavens?

humans have been given free will and those who choose to obey God are deemed superior than the angels because angels have no choice in their obedience to God.

God created Adam and Eve in paradise, although he fully knew the outcome, but since they committed a sin in heaven, they along with the rest of us, because of our nature to be disobedient if we choose, must go through this life in which we are tested to either obey or not. in the afterlife there is no such test and there is no wronging others or committing evil. thats where God stops evil from occurring since the afterlife is not a test. all evil characteristics of humans, such as hatred etc will not exist in paradise.

 

[9Westy9]

And why is there a test?
Why aren't all people born on heavens?

Took the words out of my mouth

 

[9Westy9]

humans have been given free will and those who choose to obey God are deemed superior than the angels because angels have no choice in their obedience to God.

God created Adam and Eve in paradise, although he fully knew the outcome, but since they committed a sin in heaven, they along with the rest of us, because of our nature to be disobedient if we choose, must go through this life in which we are tested to either obey or not. in the afterlife there is no such test and there is no wronging others or committing evil. thats where God stops evil from occurring since the afterlife is not a test. all evil characteristics of humans, such as hatred etc will not exist in paradise.

but why aren't we all born in heaven? Also if heaven is perfect then how did Adam and Eve sin? Also is it possible for us to sin when we get to heaven? Also this 'test' seems like a gamble, unless the entry requirement doesn't contain belief in the right deity

 

[Gharib]

but why aren't we all born in heaven?

according to islamic belief, God created all humans long before they came to life in this world, a verse in the Qur'an mentions this case and speaks about humans making a covenant with Allah that we would worship him in this life and agree to go through this test.

Also if heaven is perfect then how did Adam and Eve sin?

heaven was/is perfect however the nature in which man was created allowed for disobedience to occur. God tested Adam and Eve in paradise and since they failed and listened to Iblis (satan) to disobey God, he took them out of paradise and sent them to live an appointed amount of time on earth in order for them to live a life of the nature of which they were created. if he had not tested them in paradise and called us sinners and disobedient at times when we choose then for lack of a better word one could say that God was unjust towards us. because one could argue that paradise is a place of peace and there is no evil, however, evil did not have to exist, which it didn't, only the ability to obey and disobey was sufficient.

Also is it possible for us to sin when we get to heaven?

once we go to Heaven after this life, there will not exist the possibility to sin or to wrong others or be disobedient to God.

Also this 'test' seems like a gamble, unless the entry requirement doesn't contain belief in the right deity

some people choose not to believe. i mean all Abrahamic faiths speak against the devil yet there are people who worship him. does anyone force them? no, they choose to. i choose to believe in Allah and the teachings of islam, i was not forced to accept it and i am not forced to believe in it.

 

[9Westy9]

according to islamic belief, God created all humans long before they came to life in this world, a verse in the Qur'an mentions this case and speaks about humans making a covenant with Allah that we would worship him in this life and agree to go through this test.

I agreed to nothing.

heaven was/is perfect however the nature in which man was created allowed for disobedience to occur. God tested Adam and Eve in paradise and since they failed and listened to Iblis (satan) to disobey God, he took them out of paradise and sent them to live an appointed amount of time on earth in order for them to live a life of the nature of which they were created. if he had not tested them in paradise and called us sinners and disobedient at times when we choose then for lack of a better word one could say that God was unjust towards us. because one could argue that paradise is a place of peace and there is no evil, however, evil did not have to exist, which it didn't, only the ability to obey and disobey was sufficient.

I still don't get why God needed to do that when his ultimate aim is to have as many people with him in paradise. This unnecessary run around only confuses us more. In fact it's quite a good indication that he doesn't seem to exist.

once we go to Heaven after this life, there will not exist the possibility to sin or to wrong others or be disobedient to God.

Again, why not just do that in the first place? It makes God appear very sadistic as he watches us suffer

some people choose not to believe. i mean all Abrahamic faiths speak against the devil yet there are people who worship him. does anyone force them? no, they choose to. i choose to believe in Allah and the teachings of islam, i was not forced to accept it and i am not forced to believe in it.

and I choose not to, because I see no good reason to even believe he exists

 

[waitasec]

In the classes I took on formal logic,

yes some do need to be educated in such things...

 

[waitasec]

humans have been given free will and those who choose to obey God are deemed superior than the angels because angels have no choice in their obedience to God.

an ultimatum isn't a part of exercising free will...it's called manipulation

so why the test again?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Who creates evil: man or God?

Thought I would put this up again...

 

[Willamena]

Is man exempt from God?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I'm going to give skwim some time(weeks) to respond, considering that I threw a library at him from which to derive his research(of which, a simple google search won't yield an answer).

EDIT:
At this point, I'd be open to copying relevant posts into a one-to-one debate to prevent 3rd party pollution of the argument.

 

[waitasec]

apparently someone is over compensating...

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Is man exempt from God?

In this case, would not God trump man, since God is not only man but more? It would be God that creates evil.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

apparently someone is over compensating...

Do you have anything relevant to add to the discussion or are you here simply to snipe at a demand for real scholarship?

 

[waitasec]

yup...
i was right