A Formal Proof that if Evil Exists then the Theists' God Does Not

[Skwim]

Actually, I was trying to reflect your reasoning.

My condolences.

 

[M. J. Fernandes]

My condolences.

So if you cannot offer genuine counter-arguments, will you be converting to being a theist? I am thinking of making some posts concerning free-will, perhaps it is this point that is holding you back?

 

[Koldo]

It doesn't necessarily follow that God would prevent the occurrence of evil. It may be that He desired and planned it. Evil, once it's run its course (like a pathogen), may be the best thing for humanity. Our inability to know this admittedly could (and probably would) bring us to the conclusion that God would be wrong not to stop evil, but the possibility that reality is ordered such that evil will eventually produce a greater good renders the above argument weak.

What follows from it would be likewise weakened, especially the derivation that God's not good.

You are saying that god is not omnipotent, since evil is required to achieve a greater good.
An omnipotent being has unlimited power to bring about any state of affairs. Any requirements ( such as evil ) to achieve its intended consequence is a sign of being less than omnipotent.

You may, of course, hold omnipotence to a lower standard, but that is not how the problem of evil generally uses the word.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Without the low there would be no high. Can't be omniscient until you hate and die. The reason we sin instead of fly. But, worthy is the wise.

 

[M. J. Fernandes]

My condolences.

I have posted something to argue for free-will that can be found here.

 

[dantech]

All this goes out the window when God created free will. He theoretically relinquished his power of preventing evil.

 

[MonkeyFire]

All this goes out the window when God created free will. He theoretically relinquished his power of preventing evil.

God created free will but not dissidence.

 

[syo]

(1) If God exists he is omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good.
[Hypothesis that the theists' God exists]

(2) Evil occurs.

what is good, what is evil?

 

[Skwim]

what is good, what is evil?

.​

 

[Quintessence]

I realize that @syo necroed a thread that is three years dead and five years old (please don't do that, by the way), but surely @Skwim can do better than resort to a feeble standard dictionary in response to a complex philosophical issue?

 

[syo]

I realize that @syo necroed a thread that is three years dead and five years old (please don't do that, by the way),

ok, i won't post on old threads but why not?

 

[Quintessence]

ok, i won't post on old threads but why not?

It's basic forum etiquette, and thread necromancy is often considered a type of spam. We don't have an official statement about it in the rules here, but we probably should.

 

[Skwim]

I realize that @syo necroed a thread that is three years dead and five years old (please don't do that, by the way), but surely @Skwim can do better than resort to a feeble standard dictionary in response to a complex philosophical issue?

Hmmm . . . As it stood, syo raised no point for consideration, and in as much as his question was about as concise and straight forward as one could put it I thought my reply was quite apt. Simple question. Simple answer. Want to discuss somethin' then let me know what that somethin' is. And what's the deal here anyway. You chastise syo for resurrecting a long dead thread, but then take me to task for not continuing it with a more philosophical answer. That's a ²

.

 

[Cary Cook]

(1) If God exists he is omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good.​

The idea that "God" is omnipotent, omni-etc. and good comes from scriptures.

There is no philosophical reason why the Supreme Being is necessarily any of those things. Theism does not require any dogmas whatsoever - despite the fact that most theists dogmatically claim to know it's true.

 

[12jtartar]

Came across this formal disproof of god's existence. What do you think of it?

(1) If God exists he is omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good.
[Hypothesis that the theists' God exists]

(2) Evil occurs.
[Statement of the undisputed fact of evil]

(3) If someone did not prevent the occurrence of evil despite having full knowledge in advance that it would occur if he were not to prevent it and despite also having unlimited power to prevent it, then that person is morally culpable for its occurrence.
[Generalized principle of command responsibility]

(4) By virtue of his omniscience, God knew in advance that evil would occur unless he was to prevent it.
[From 1 by definition of omniscience]

(5) By virtue of his omnipotence, God had the ability to prevent the occurrence of evil.
[From 1 by definition of omnipotence in terms of absence of nonlogical limits to God's ability]

(6) God did not prevent the occurrence of evil.
[From 2 by double negation]

(7) God had the ability to prevent evil from occurring and knew it would occur if he did not prevent it.
[From 4 and 5 by conjunction]

(8) God is morally culpable for the occurrence of evil.
[From the conjunction of 3, 6, and 7 by modus ponens]

(9) God is not wholly good.
[From 8 by definition of "wholly good"]

(10) God does not exist.
[From 1 and 9 by modus tollens]
7.4 Conclusion

The theist's God was supposed to be morally perfect as well as omnipotent and omniscient. But from the undisputed fact that evil exists in the world whose existence he supposedly brought about, it follows--by the unassailable moral truth expressed in the Generalized Principle of Command Responsibility--that he can't have all three properties at once. Ipso facto, such a God does not now, and never did, exist. It is the logic of the new Down-Under Disproof, not of Plantinga's Free Will Defense, that triumphs.

source
​

Skwim,
Do you realize just how you sound; you have made yourself the ruler and Supreme Judge.
God knew that evil people would try to put the blame on Him, so He did not foresee that Adam and Eve would sin against Him and condemn all their offspring to death.
It can easily be seen, by what the Holy Scriptures say, that Go was hurt by sins, which would not be the case, if He Knew, they would sin, and especially if He caused it, Genesis 6:5-7, Psalms 78:40-48.
God made all things perfect, but He gave people the right to chose either right or wrong, they had free will, as can easily be seen by their actions, Deuteronomy 32:4-6. These Scriptures prove that God did not know before hand that things would go wrong, Job 34:10,12.
Consider that God is, Perfect in Knowledge, Job 36:4, 37:16.
Use a little of your God given ratiocination, God knows everything, that means that He knows everything that HAS Happened, it does NOT mean that He knows everything that has not happened, for their is nothing to know, until it happens, Job 42:2. Exactly who do you think you are to condemn God and try to make yourself a Judge of God, Job 40:2,7,8.
I advise you to do some serious genuflection, and beg God for forgiveness, for your presumptuousness, James 4:12. Do not fight against the Holy Spirit that assisted in the writing of the Bible, Matthew 12:31,32, 2Peter 1:20,21.

 

[12jtartar]

I'm a theist, and as far as good or bad goes, I've already said that I think God is immune to morality.

Morality is subjective/God, being all-seeing.knowing is immune to subjectivity/ therefore God is immune to morality.



Then quit saying "the theists"



It depends on how real you want to be.



Showing you the flaws in your equation is actually a valid reason to participate, as far as I'm concerned.



So you're only looking for input from people who already agree with you?



Oh, those are the "the theists" you meant. Sorry, I mistakenly took "the theists" to mean "the theists".



OK then.



Thanks.

Now I'm off to start a thread entitled "Proof that the atheists habit of eating babies is unhealthy". If you're an atheist but don't eat babies, don't worry about it.

Quagmire,
Your statement is a pitiful attempt at paronomasia, but does not fit reality.
Since God created all things, including you, He has the right and the power to tell all what is moral or immoral, which He has stated in His Holy Scriptures. He has also made you with free will so that you can chose to disobey God, Who only gives commandments for our own Good, not just because He can, Deuteronomy 10:13, Psalms 32:8,9, Isaiah 48:17, 1John 5:3. But remember, even though God does not want to destroy anyone, He will be forced to, because all who do not want to obey, including God’s rules about morality, cannot fit into a paradise that God will made of this earth, 1Corinthins 6:9-11, 1Timothy 1:6-11,2Peter 3:7,9, Revelation 21:1-5

 

[stevevw]

Came across this formal disproof of god's existence. What do you think of it?

(1) If God exists he is omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good.
[Hypothesis that the theists' God exists]

(2) Evil occurs.
[Statement of the undisputed fact of evil]

(3) If someone did not prevent the occurrence of evil despite having full knowledge in advance that it would occur if he were not to prevent it and despite also having unlimited power to prevent it, then that person is morally culpable for its occurrence.
[Generalized principle of command responsibility]​

This depends on what moral grounds you take. The Kantian moral framwork equates good with what is law, rule or obligation. Utalitarian equates good with consequences and what is best for most people. There are a number of basis for what is good or evil so how can you know and determine the complete circumstances to make an assessment about what is good and evil especially when considering that it is Gods version of good we are talking about and that God knows all the mitigating circumstances more than you or I to make the ultimate assessment. Judging good and evil based on our limited understanding and knowledge makes it hard to be sure about what is right and wrong.

(4) By virtue of his omniscience, God knew in advance that evil would occur unless he was to prevent it.
[From 1 by definition of omniscience]

(5) By virtue of his omnipotence, God had the ability to prevent the occurrence of evil.
[From 1 by definition of omnipotence in terms of absence of nonlogical limits to God's ability]

(6) God did not prevent the occurrence of evil.
[From 2 by double negation]

(7) God had the ability to prevent evil from occurring and knew it would occur if he did not prevent it.
[From 4 and 5 by conjunction]

(8) God is morally culpable for the occurrence of evil.
[From the conjunction of 3, 6, and 7 by modus ponens]

(9) God is not wholly good.
[From 8 by definition of "wholly good"]

(10) God does not exist.
[From 1 and 9 by modus tollens]
7.4 Conclusion

The theist's God was supposed to be morally perfect as well as omnipotent and omniscient. But from the undisputed fact that evil exists in the world whose existence he supposedly brought about, it follows--by the unassailable moral truth expressed in the Generalized Principle of Command Responsibility--that he can't have all three properties at once. Ipso facto, such a God does not now, and never did, exist. It is the logic of the new Down-Under Disproof, not of Plantinga's Free Will Defense, that triumphs.

source

The premise is wrong and makes assumptions. Once again it is basing the criteria for what is good and bad on a limited knowledge of the circumstances. Only God knows all the facts and there may be something that we do not know that is influencing things. Using the different measures of what is good and bad once again can determine different basis for evil and in some peoples eyes it is not evil to know something is bad and not act on it. It some cases people think it is better to not act even though they know evil is being committed. IE an evil dictator has deadly weapons for which dropping a bomb can destroy them but they are in amoung innocent civilians. The Kantian view would be to destroy the weapons despite the loss of innocent life. The utalitarian view would consider all parties involved and hesitate based on killing innocent lives.God may have another view that is beyond all this and therefore has reasons to act the way he does. Maybe meddling in our affairs changes things and we are no longer the same people and there is a loss of a quality or dimension in life that causes things to be affected like the butterfly effect. Who knows.[/QUOTE]

 

[Skwim]

There is no philosophical reason why the Supreme Being is necessarily any of those things. Theism does not require any dogmas whatsoever - despite the fact that most theists dogmatically claim to know it's true.

You're right, there is no necessity or requirement, but nevertheless it's a claim Christians make of their god.

.

 

[Skwim]

Skwim,
Do you realize just how you sound; you have made yourself the ruler and Supreme Judge.

Good grief man,

it's not mine, but part of an article I came across.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Easy. Evil does not exist. It is a figment.

Monism - New World Encyclopedia

Substantival monists such as Baruch Spinoza and many Hindus and Buddhists, who equate the universe with the divine in terms of one substance, reject the theistic notion of God. So, the problem of evil is not pertinent to them. For them, evil is merely an "illusion," which results from a lack of adequate knowledge of the all-inclusive Unity.

(...)

Even Jewish and Christian believers with a monistic tendency are inclined to hold that evil is no longer evil in the state of harmony between God and creation. Hence, according to Meister Eckhart, "Everything praises God. Darkness, privations, defects, and evil praise and bless God."[9]

Consider an abusive boss, that drives one to terror and stress, and finally forces one to quit (or be fired). I can tell you of this firsthand, as today my contract was ended. And yet, I feel no fear anymore. When this pressure was looked at as it really was, it drove me to be my best. Each harsh criticism made me work on an aspect of myself. And when I became weary of constant pressure, I was set free. Despite my frustration and anger, ultimately, God gave me exactly what I wanted.

God is One. God is Light. And Light is not like mortal light, it is unity.

In him there is no darkness at all.
The night and the day are both alike.
The Lamb is the light of the city of God.
Shine in my heart, Lord Jesus.