A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

[Bismillah]

Exactly, and many Islamic nations are just that, economically suffering areas, in conflict between superstition and the shadow of western modernity.

So your thesis is that many poor Islamic countries are so because of superstition?

 

[Caladan]

So your thesis is that many poor Islamic countries are so because of superstition?

Actually this isn't my 'thesis', this is one of the many points both Orientalists and oriental intellectuals have made for a very long time now.

 

[Bismillah]

Actually this isn't my 'thesis', this is one of the many points both Orientalists and oriental intellectuals have made for a very long time now.

So it's a thesis you have adopted which coincidentally is completely wrong.

 

[Starsoul]

So your thesis is that many poor Islamic countries are so because of superstition?

They are so because they linger in reluctance to the condescending western shadows. Who needs to feel 'upgraded and liberated' by trading sound values for a better looking house? Not me.

 

[Caladan]

So it's a thesis you have adopted which coincidentally is completely wrong.

Well, im opened to hear your counter thesis.

 

[Sahar]

I find it amazing that describing women as delicate is offensive. The problem is feminist activists there considered man their ideal. Women started to compare themselves to men. It can be said they became enslaved by men. Calling women emotional and delicate became offensive. Being a housewife and a mother is degrading. Why to be ashamed of our feminine qualities? I don't understand.

 

[Sahar]

So you're saying, a swimming pool = nakedness and indecent mixing? This is a serious question.

Umm except if it wasn't mixed and every one sticked to the proper clothes or at least if it was mixed, people should preserve their hijab. What did you expect exactly? With all this Islamic emphasis on modesty; hijab, lowering the gaze, talking modestly...etc and then suddenly Muslim scholars shall say taking off your clothes in a mixed swimming pool is halal?!! :sarcastic

There is a big outdoor pool at my university's recreation center. Could you describe in a few words what you imagine goes on there?

At least people take off their day clothes and wear their swimsuits and bikinis...etc. :cover:
You can also have a bikini contest or wet T- shirt contest. Could there be a topless party? I don't know. ( not necessarily in your university, I don't know how it's like there).

Doesn't the Koran describe the fine silks and the beautiful houris which await Muslims in paradise? Other Muslims on this forum have suggested glittering jewels, etc. await female Muslims in paradise. And yet, Muslim do not seem outraged by the immodesty and materialism of paradise. They are not sickened by the way the houris of heaven are treated, essentially, as objects whose purpose of existence is only for the pleasures of men.

Wow wow, are Muslim men sickened by women and their beauty, sensuality and sexuality? The prophet of Islam himself (pbuh) said “In your world, women and perfume have been made dear to me.” So either leaving it widely open or being sickened by it? No middle ground between the two extremes. Islam is a religion of moderation. Islam emphasized fulfilling our basic needs including our sexual needs and desires for both men and women, Islam view sex as an act of worship...but with refinement and regulation. Do all this but inside the frame of a loving responsible sacred relationship i.e marriage.
Please check this thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/98393-sexuality-sex-islam.html

I wonder, according to your beliefs, could there be swimming pools, "nakedness and indecent" mixing in paradise? And if there is, will you be offended by it and wish to return to Earth so you can be free of the indecency of heaven?

Never heard there will be indecency in heaven, did you?

 

[Caladan]

I find it amazing that describing women as delicate is offensive. The problem is feminist activists there considered the man their the ideal. Women started to compare themselves to men. It can be said they became enslaved by men. Calling women emotional and delicate became offensive. Being a housewife and a mother is degrading. Why to be ashamed of our feminine qualities? I don't understand.

It is truly tragic that some women in the world have been indoctrinated to believe they are fragile creatures, or 'delicate' as it were.

 

[Falvlun]

I find it amazing that describing women as delicate is offensive. The problem is feminist activists there considered the man their the ideal. Women started to compare themselves to men. It can be said they became enslaved by men. Calling women emotional and delicate became offensive. Being a housewife and a mother is degrading. Why to be ashamed of our feminine qualities? I don't understand.

It's not about being ashamed of our feminine qualities. It's being told that those are the only ones we can have which is offensive, restrictive, and demeaning.

 

[waitasec]

I find it amazing that describing women as delicate is offensive. The problem is feminist activists there considered man their ideal. Women started to compare themselves to men. It can be said they became enslaved by men. Calling women emotional and delicate became offensive. Being a housewife and a mother is degrading. Why to be ashamed of our feminine qualities? I don't understand.

because in history that was the only choice they had...
then of course when war is at hand, ah now they can work and look after the family...

you don't consider men weak if they choose to stay at home and raise the children?

 

[Starsoul]

I worked as a dancer in a strip club for 3 years -- now I have a B.S. in physics without owing anyone any money, whereas most students get out of undergraduate studies owing tens of thousands of dollars in debt. I never once felt oppressed, in fact I felt empowered. I have a degree to show for it, too. I wasn't the only one either; one of my co-workers had attained her CNA and was working on her RN.



I didn't "sell myself," it's just entertainment. I made a choice not to have debt after undergraduate studies and I'm glad I had options available to me to do so.

The point about all this quarreling I think is over the force of the fatwas in the OP: they strip away the ability to make a choice.

The best government is a secular and free government. Everybody wins in such a government because I can marry who I want to even if someone else doesn't like it (and the same for you, imagine if someone said "No you can't marry who you love because I don't like that idea"), I can work at a strip club if I want, I can go out to the bar and have good times with my friends if I want. At the same time, a Muslim can choose to live by what they believe and not do those things.

See? Everybody wins.

What happens in an oppressive theocracy, though? One group brutally enforces their beliefs on everyone else. That's tyrannical and wrong. I would fight the implementation of such a "government" to the bitter end because it's evil. Furthermore I hope that eventually all such oppressive governments (theocracies or not) fade away from this earth, everyone would be better off without them. Free governments for free people is best. If people want to live by special rules or by religious rules they're still free to do so in a free government; that's the great thing about "freedom." They just aren't allowed to force everyone else to conform to their narrow ideas of morality.

Would you or any other aspiring americans reject the opportunity to not have obtained a good university degree WITHOUT worrying to be in debt for tens of thousands of Dollars for a lifetime? If you had a daughter, would you not want for her to not worry so much and work so hard for her university degree and the fact that higher education was more easily accessible to her and all the others who aspire for it?

Isn't it a bit unfair that Most americans have to struggle with debt regarding their owned property , their houses , their education and what not.. Thats another debate, but i was only trying to say that interest system is highly discouraged in Islam, and education is highly encouraged. In an Islamic system, you would not have to worry about your finances being forever tied to a debt/ increasing interest rates/ or a lifestyle which seems hard and consuming for most to save some money for the rainy days.

What do you call a democracy which leeches people's hard earned money out in the name of exorbitant taxes and in the end they don't even own a decent house and cant save enough to educate their children, or make it conducive for them to enroll in a university. You being a girl could earn from working in a club, what about a boy who wants to gather money for his further education? would he be as successful too?

 

[waitasec]

They are so because they linger in reluctance to the condescending western shadows. Who needs to feel 'upgraded and liberated' by trading sound values for a better looking house? Not me.

you might enjoy this
The Stockholm Syndrome Pt. 1 - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 4/21/2009 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

The Stockholm Syndrome Pt. 2 - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 4/22/2009 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

the thing is i can make fun of my culture and not feel any fear for doing so
can the people that live within the islamic/muslim culture make fun of the fatwas they seem to be subjected to?

 

[Starsoul]

It is truly tragic that some women in the world have been indoctrinated to believe they are fragile creatures, or 'delicate' as it were.

And its truly Savage that most men in the 'developed world' are indoctrinated that women are some non-fragile, hard , rigid, inflexible, stiff, hunter whipping competitors of males, where they are willingly only *used* for the enrichment of a man's sexual scores to be kept on an elevated level.

So glad that muslim women don't have to 'prove & compete' for their sensuality and 'sexiness' to strike as appealing to the pleasure seeking eyes of men. All women are treated as beautiful, because the society does not offer them ways to compare 'UNJUSTLY' among women regarding whos the prettiest of them all'.

 

[Caladan]

And its truly Savage that most men in the 'developed world' are indoctrinated that women are some non-fragile, hard , rigid, inflexible, stiff, hunter whipping competitors of males,

This is good.

where they are willingly only *used* for the enrichment of a man's sexual scores to be kept on an elevated level.

This is rubbish.

So glad that muslim women don't have to 'prove & compete' for their sensuality and 'sexiness' to strike as appealing to the pleasure seeking eyes of men. All women are treated as beautiful, because the society does not offer them ways to compare 'UNJUSTLY' among women regarding whos the prettiest of them all'.

Yeap, we get it. the women are kept in the closet of society. as if their sexuality is a morbid freak accident of Allah.

 

[croak]

What Alabamians and Iranians Have in Common

Under "Countries with Comparable Religiosity", do they mean the religiosity of the people themselves or the government or both? The question "Is religion an important part of your daily life?" can have different meanings for different people. Let's take Lebanon as an example, which sits at 86%. An atheist Lebanese might say religion is an important part of his life because his government is based on confessionalism, which means the sect a person belongs to dictates certain positions they can occupy. If this atheist man doesn't want to pretend he is still a part of the sect he was born into, he can't become a member of Parliament. Period. Obviously, that will affect his career choices. Not to mention that most of the parties here have a sectarian slant, the Civil War was mainly sectarian in nature, civil marriage does not exist in Lebanon, and probably countless other things I forgot to mention. Oh, and the only religions Lebanon officially recognizes are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, so if you don't belong to one of those religions, you are about as well off as the atheist. Also, if you don't belong to a recognized sect, you may be in roughly the same position.

So maybe 86% of Lebanese are religious; or maybe they're just reflecting on how much the religion of others affects their lives. Maybe off-topic, but the question just seemed too open to interpretation. I'll go back to screaming about mosquitoes, now.

 

[no-body]

What do you call a democracy which leeches people's hard earned money out in the name of exorbitant taxes and in the end they don't even own a decent house and cant save enough to educate their children, or make it conducive for them to enroll in a university. You being a girl could earn from working in a club, what about a boy who wants to gather money for his further education? would he be as successful too?

Yeah thanks I think me and most other Americans would rather be a billion dollars in debt, working as strippers and porno actors rather than be forced to indoctrinate into a system that tells you how to think and act.

 

[Meow Mix]

I find it amazing that describing women as delicate is offensive. The problem is feminist activists there considered man their ideal. Women started to compare themselves to men. It can be said they became enslaved by men. Calling women emotional and delicate became offensive. Being a housewife and a mother is degrading. Why to be ashamed of our feminine qualities? I don't understand.

It's only offensive in some situations. It's hard to explain if you aren't familiar with pre-WWII (even up to the 50's and 60's) American culture; I don't know about other western countries.

Femininity is more delicate than masculinity and women haven't abandoned femininity; it's just that for a long time we were considered "too delicate" to handle things that we wanted to do. For instance I'm a physics student; I could never have accomplished this a few decades ago because I would have been considered "too delicate" to handle the hard mathematics and competitiveness in the field.

Being delicate isn't an insult, saying in a sweeping/generalizing way that women are to be thought of as delicate though throws salt on old wounds to American women. Again it's hard to explain; it's only offensive when it's given a certain "tone" and tones are hard to detect through text.

 

[Meow Mix]

Would you or any other aspiring americans reject the opportunity to not have obtained a good university degree WITHOUT worrying to be in debt for tens of thousands of Dollars for a lifetime? If you had a daughter, would you not want for her to not worry so much and work so hard for her university degree and the fact that higher education was more easily accessible to her and all the others who aspire for it?

Isn't it a bit unfair that Most americans have to struggle with debt regarding their owned property , their houses , their education and what not.. Thats another debate, but i was only trying to say that interest system is highly discouraged in Islam, and education is highly encouraged. In an Islamic system, you would not have to worry about your finances being forever tied to a debt/ increasing interest rates/ or a lifestyle which seems hard and consuming for most to save some money for the rainy days.

What do you call a democracy which leeches people's hard earned money out in the name of exorbitant taxes and in the end they don't even own a decent house and cant save enough to educate their children, or make it conducive for them to enroll in a university. You being a girl could earn from working in a club, what about a boy who wants to gather money for his further education? would he be as successful too?

Oh I agree with you that there are loan sharks and vultures over here, but it isn't democracy or freedom that's the problem. Education is in fact available to pretty much anyone. The people who end up in debt are the ones that don't finish school and fail to make payments so they end up in default.

The problem is that there's a problem in America with many politicians favoring the rich (a huge % of American wealth is in the hands of a small few just like everywhere else in the world).

America also has huge problems with health care. I agree with you that it's not a perfect country.

But that's not what I'm saying is the best government. I'm saying the best government is a free government -- America is an example of one, though obviously imperfect but the key thing is that it's getting better.

I'm arguing against living in a theocracy or any other form of dictatorship (which theocracies are) and rather to live in a country where we are free to excercise our own cultures. I can eat pork if I want, you can abstain from eating pork if you want. I can go to the bar with the girls if I want, you can do whatever you like to do instead if you want. There's no reason for me to tell you that you can't do something (unless you're hurting someone) just like there's no reason for you to tell me I can't do something just because one of us doesn't like what the other's doing!

 

[beenie]

It's only offensive in some situations. It's hard to explain if you aren't familiar with pre-WWII (even up to the 50's and 60's) American culture; I don't know about other western countries.

Femininity is more delicate than masculinity and women haven't abandoned femininity; it's just that for a long time we were considered "too delicate" to handle things that we wanted to do. For instance I'm a physics student; I could never have accomplished this a few decades ago because I would have been considered "too delicate" to handle the hard mathematics and competitiveness in the field.

Being delicate isn't an insult, saying in a sweeping/generalizing way that women are to be thought of as delicate though throws salt on old wounds to American women. Again it's hard to explain; it's only offensive when it's given a certain "tone" and tones are hard to detect through text.

see? i've frubaled you too much too lately.

consider yourself frubaled here. i really think this "women are delicate" phrase is highly cultural; since i live in America but know how it's used in Urdu, etc...it's one of those terms that will hopefully be clarified.

 

[Meow Mix]

see? i've frubaled you too much too lately.

consider yourself frubaled here. i really think this "women are delicate" phrase is highly cultural; since i live in America but know how it's used in Urdu, etc...it's one of those terms that will hopefully be clarified.

lol yay

Yeah, and I didn't mean to insinuate that Starsoul was saying it in an offensive manner... I was just commenting on why there was a high volume of response to his post. Americans, men and women alike, can be sensitive to the word because of the social changes we've relatively recently gone through in regards to women being thought of as "too delicate."

So please Starsoul, know that I wasn't offended I was just telling you why there might have been more emotion than usual behind responses to the use of the term from Americans

I know that you didn't mean it in an offensive way, and value you as a friend with valid viewpoints. I was just giving you perspective regarding the use of that term with Americans. As long as "too delicate" isn't implied, "delicate" is usually fine!