A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

[Meow Mix]

Let's face the real facts. Saudi approved fatwas are purely political.

Oh yeah, I in no way think this garbage is indicative of Islam in its entirety.

I didn't know what to think about Islam before arriving on this board, really... I had Muslim neighbors one year (in fact, they were Saudi) who let me try some lamb they had prepared. Funny story, I made them macaroni and cheese one time and it was the first time they'd ever had it! Not sure they liked it too much, at that. But then again I'm an awful cook, even when it comes to boxed M&C haha.

We never really talked about their religion though, and I rarely ever saw them.

Then 9/11 happened and many people were getting all anti-Islamic but I saw that for the farce it was... it wasn't until I got here that I really started talking to Muslims and confirmed that they're respectable, kind and thinking people. Some that I've met have strange beliefs to me but hey, lots of people have strange beliefs.

I just think it sucks that these fatwas make Muslims look like bigots against kafirs, who fear that kafir friends are lurking in the shadows just waiting to attack their faith... or worse, that Muslims are forbidden for whatever reason from civil and intelligent discourse with someone that disagrees (if they can't be friends with a kafir lest the kafir friend says non-Islamic things, this is implied there)...

I just wanna say that I haven't met a single Muslim on RF that I don't like. There's only a total of 3 people on my ignore list and not a single one of them is Muslim. You guys (and gals!) rock, but I feel bad that stuff like this goes on because in my eyes it gives reasonable Muslims a bad name.

 

[darkendless]

I agree with you on seat belts; they should be optional except perhaps for car seats of small children. Mature adults should make their own decision though.

Come now don't be selfish. No one wants to clean your bits off the road when you hit something and go flying through the front windshield.

If seatbelts were optional and not really necessary car companies woulnd't bother wasting time and effort putting them in.

 

[Meow Mix]

Come now don't be selfish. No one wants to clean your bits off the road when you hit something and go flying through the front windshield.

If seatbelts were optional and not really necessary car companies woulnd't bother wasting time and effort putting them in.

I didn't say they weren't really necessary, I said they should be optional.

How comfortable are you with the state making health decisions for you?

Would you object if they designed a mandatory meal plan for you, too? Banned cigarettes? Banned all empty carbs everywhere?

There are some situations where seatbelts kill, rather than save, people. It should be a choice for anyone of consenting adult age with sound mental faculties.

 

[Smoke]

Let's face the real facts. Saudi approved fatwas are purely political.

That's not a fact.

 

[Nepenthe]

I didn't say they weren't really necessary, I said they should be optional.

How comfortable are you with the state making health decisions for you?

Would you object if they designed a mandatory meal plan for you, too? Banned cigarettes? Banned all empty carbs everywhere?

There are some situations where seatbelts kill, rather than save, people. It should be a choice for anyone of consenting adult age with sound mental faculties.

I agree that adults should be able to eat unhealthy food and mainline heroin if they want, but I also think insurance companies should be free to enforce exorbitant rates for high risk behavior.

As for the seatbelts kill urban legend, well, it's false. There are no documented incidents where skipping the seatbelt was advantageous. It's certainly statistically possible there have been occasions where seatbelts were a disadvantage, but the chances of such are just not significant and there are no actual examples beyond anecdotes.
snopes.com: Seatbelt Risk
Hell, in 2003 alone the costs alone of auto deaths and injuries from not wearing seatbelts was around 26 billion.

Oops... I'm kinda derailing so I'll stop now. :sorry1:

 

[Meow Mix]

I agree that adults should be able to eat unhealthy food and mainline heroin if they want, but I also think insurance companies should be free to enforce exorbitant rates for high risk behavior.

As for the seatbelts kill urban legend, well, it's false. There are no documented incidents where skipping the seatbelt was advantageous. It's certainly statistically possible there have been occasions where seatbelts were a disadvantage, but the chances of such are just not significant and there are no actual examples beyond anecdotes.
snopes.com: Seatbelt Risk
Hell, in 2003 alone the costs alone of auto deaths and injuries from not wearing seatbelts was around 26 billion.

Then someone caught without their seatbelt should just have their insurance company notified rather than ticketed by the government.

Same outcome, but one is less about a government making decisions FOR you.

(For the record I feel naked without my seatbelt, even if I'm just going across the street )

 

[Nepenthe]

Then someone caught without their seatbelt should just have their insurance company notified rather than ticketed by the government.

Same outcome, but one is less about a government making decisions FOR you.

(For the record I feel naked without my seatbelt, even if I'm just going across the street )

Yup. Agreed. I wouldn't be opposed to doing away with seatbelt/helmet laws and just letting the victim wrangle with what the insurance companies decide for them. It'd suck to lose your life savings because you didn't have a seatbelt and could have avoided serious injury. But yes, there's no need for a nanny state to get any.. uuuhhhh... "nannier".

 

[Nepenthe]

Btw, I'm wearing a seatbelt as I type this because I'm posting from my phone as I drive.


It's a joke people!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

not4me,

Thanks for explaining the "greeting non-Muslims" issue.

You reject "Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood" with non-Muslims?!?!

I know, it's quite astounding.

as a Muslim, I don't need fatwas to tell me

who to be friends with
how to greet non-Muslims
what gifts I can take to them
how to cover myself

:clap

Firstly, the fatwas are for only Muslims to follow, ...

All other things will happen ,like helping them out in need, greetings, a nice chitchat and reaching out, but when you cannot do most things together, you dont really become very good friends, and the reason is the difference of common grounds and common practices. e.g Muslims are not to go to dance clubs/ parties and places where alcohol/ nudity etc is the rage, and non-muslims usually look to socialize or enjoy within that circle.

Yes, and when I was in school, the white kids and black kids tended to stick together. But no one with an ounce of humanity and compassion would instruct white kids and black kids explicitly "Never become close friends with them", as if to say, if a white kid and black kid happen to become close in spite of whatever differences they have, that would be a bad thing.

The fatwas are not observing a tendency of the world to organize itself into groups of people with similar interests. The fatwas are commanding: DO NOT become close friends with non-Muslims. If you find yourself becoming close friends with a non-Muslim, due to the ordinary feelings of mutual love and brotherhood that sometimes occur among human beings, stop it.

The fatwas are statements of bigotry, plain and simple. I don't think the people (Muslims and non-Muslims) on this thread who disagree with the fatwas do not understand them. I think the people who agree with the fatwas do not understand them. If we want to end conflict in the world, and foster humanity and friendship between different groups instead of misunderstanding and hatred, we should be encouraging people to be open to becoming close friends with those who are different.

You could be friends with them from a univ. or your neighbourhood and you can also study together but if you are a practising muslim you wont be interested in going to clubs, concerts and parties with them. There are offcorse muslims who do that, but they arent practising muslims, so there.

Yes, that will certainly be a natural trend. But to emphasize my point: it is inevitable that in some cases, some Muslims and non-Muslims will become very close friends, for whatever reason. The fatwas are saying: don't. Resist the temptation to be an open, loving human being towards everyone.

I'm not afraid to look at women on campus, I just prefer not to reinforce their self-destructive beliefs. This seems to give me peace of mind

I think we all agree that (a) it's okay to appreciate physical beauty in people, (b) we should try not to reinforce self-destructive beliefs, and (c) we should make our wives/husbands/partners happy. How, exactly, one accomplishes these things is very subjective and there are probably many ways of doing it, unique to each person's circumstances and culture. The only thing I am certain of, is that the fatwa against swimming pools has nothing to do with any of these things. It's the kind of statement that could only come from old, fanatical men, who are mortified by the innocent pleasures of this life, even as they wait impatiently for the sexual and physical pleasures they believe await them in the next life.

As a Muslim attending University and having spent the majority of my upbringing in America, I can relate to the OP's statement to a level. A man's closest friend is the one who can understand his problems, relate to his experiences, and celebrate with him the joys of life. Now I think most people would be in agreement with this statement. While I have many non-Muslim friends I hold in dear regard, I don't expect them to be able to reinforce me and lend sympathy towards my own faith, if for example I do not attend payers at the mosque. So while I hold many cherished relationships with non-Muslims and am happy for the diverse perspectives they instill in me, I cannot label these guys as my closest friends. That simply doesn't work when I'd rather go play indoor soccer after nightly prayers then go to the bar with a bunch of guys.

Your point is taken, Abibi. But as I said above, the purpose of the fatwas is not to observe that Muslims tend to become close friends with other Muslims. The fatwas are ordering, "DO NOT" become close friends with non-Muslims. Even if you have feelings of "mutual love... and brotherhood" towards a non-Muslim, which surely happens occasionally given the size and complexity of this world, try to put those feelings aside.

The fatwas are not saying "Muslims rarely go to funerals for Kafirs".... the fatwas are saying "DO NOT go to their funerals". A family in Switzerland, for example, could lose their child. Their friends and neighbors, a Muslim family, do not go to the funeral. Perhaps the basic sentiments of human decency would ordinarily compel them to go to the funeral of their friends' child, but their religious obligations (if they pay any mind to Saudi Arabia's clerics) trump human decency.

That said a government has no place mandating who my friends are and how close I can be with them.

Hear, hear.

 

[Sahar]

The only thing I am certain of, is that the fatwa against swimming pools has nothing to do with any of these things. It's the kind of statement that could only come from old, fanatical men, who are mortified by the innocent pleasures of this life, even as they wait impatiently for the sexual and physical pleasures they believe await them in the next life.

Innocent pleasure of this life? What do nakedness and indecent mixing have anything to do with innocence?
This talk and its alike is not surprising to come from people who have no appreciation for modesty and decency or any spiritual values and meanings. To a degree of saying that women should appear sexy so that men could be amused and hence they would be real men. And women who expect their husbands to be committed to them deserve honor killing. :areyoucra

 

[Starsoul]

the problem with your Deen is that it denies the very basic and primal nature of men and women. it is no wonder Muslim women are suffering from honor killings, discrimination, and oppression.
btw, I have never said anything about 'lusting', I have commented that as a man it is perfectly natural for me to appreciate a good looking woman, and any man who ever tries to repress that, is no longer a man.

The Deen directs that particular primal aspect of humans into an order rather than letting it run loose to destroy societies (Example, orphanages for unwanted babies in the west? seriously if you impregnate a sensuous woman without any intentions and the 'wise' decision on her part would be abandon that baby to an orphanage for a clueless life, i doubt how humanistic your way of thinking is. This is happening in a huge numbers in the western secular lifestyle, and providing a shelter to such babies isn't a viable solution to put up with such irresponsible behaviour of 'MATURE looking for a quickie' adults who believe such actions bring peace to the society. )

The point being made isn't that men should try to repress their nature, it is only about organizing it with principles within a rightful and just direction so that unwanted male sexual behaviour is kept in check . I'm not sure though what your thinking will be when you have your own daughter and how joyous will be the experience for you when every other man lusts for her objective sexuality and finds a way to appreciate it like you do now. I'm quite sure your notion about the objectivity of females will drastically change, if you only realize how vulnerable and innocent the fairer sex is and how brutally animalisitc the unchecked nature of man is.

 

[Meow Mix]

Innocent pleasure of this life? What do nakedness and indecent mixing have anything to do with innocence?

There is nothing inherently wrong with nakedness or "mixing." Only taboo makes it that way.

 

[Caladan]

if you only realize how vulnerable and innocent the fairer sex .

That is a very chauvinistic and misogynistic mind set, I NEVER think so low of the women Im with, some of them are stronger than me in various ways.
Its really sad if this is how Muslim men think about Muslimahs.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There is nothing inherently wrong with nakedness or "mixing." Only taboo makes it that way.

Yep. Agreed.

Backstage while a show is running, you'll commonly see men and women doing quick changes in the wings, getting in and out of costume, and all without fanfare. The newbies go through a 10 second period of bewilderment, but then it's business as usual and readying ourselves for the next cue.

 

[AuroraWillow]

I'm quite sure your notion about the objectivity of females will drastically change, if you only realize how vulnerable and innocent the fairer sex is and how brutally animalisitc the unchecked nature of man is.

Ok, so, how vulnerable and innocent am I, as a woman, business owner, community leader and head of my own household?

And, you know, normal men have no problem keeping their lust in check. Unless they are mentally unbalanced, they don't even have thoughts of raping or beating a woman because they saw a bit of her flesh.

Women don't need to be protected by being oppressed. Islamic men need to control themselves and get therapy if these thoughts are normal.

 

[Caladan]

Ok, so, how vulnerable and innocent am I, as a woman, business owner, community leader and head of my own household?

And, you know, normal men have no problem keeping their lust in check. Unless they are mentally unbalanced, they don't even have thoughts of raping or beating a woman because they saw a bit of her flesh.

Women don't need to be protected by being oppressed. Islamic men need to control themselves and get therapy if these thoughts are normal.

Praise be Allah, truer words have not been spoken in the Hadith

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That is a very chauvinistic and misogynistic mind set, I NEVER think so low of the women Im with, some of them are stronger than me in various ways.
Its really sad if this is how Muslim men think about Muslimahs.

But I'm so vulnerable and frail and innocent in my leather bustiere, my whip, and my ability and resolve to kick somebody's butt. Can't you see how much protection I need?

 

[Caladan]

But I'm so vulnerable and frail and innocent in my leather bustiere, my whip, and my ability and resolve to kick somebody's butt. Can't you see how much protection I need?

I think you can tame a group of Fedayeen with your whip, coulnd you? :flirt:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think you can tame a group of Fedayeen with your whip, coulnd you? :flirt:

Five minutes. Just give me five minutes with them....

 

[Caladan]

Five minutes. Just give me five minutes with them....

:biglaugh: