A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

[McBell]

If it fulfills your ego sure I've grown weary over a conversation based on anecdotal evidence, opinions, and beliefs. It's simple enough that our opinions differ and that when it comes down to it most Muslim women are at least as pleased with their husbands as their non-Muslim counterparts are.

Seems that it is not my ego that is at risk here...

I notice you failed to respond to the rest of my post.
One wonders why.

 

[Bismillah]

Seems that it is not my ego that is at risk here...

Excellent, glad you keep yourself in check.

I've grown weary over a conversation based on anecdotal evidence, opinions, and beliefs.

 

[Meow Mix]

I view the lengths that women on campus go to expose themselves as self-destructive

I probably dress in a way you'd consider "exposing myself" but I assure you that having people look at me or desire me has absolutely nothing to do with it. I just wear what I want because it's comfortable.

 

[Meow Mix]

You are certainly taking from your wife something, that I believe should be, could have been hers only.

I disagree, but more to the point of the OP: do you think the state should mandate whether or not people engage in premarital sex?

Or do you think people should be able to make their own choices?

 

[Sufi]

I still dont see any references for these fatwa's (wich scholars issued them their evidences etc).

Well?

 

[Meow Mix]

Well?

The OP was based on this article: The Associated Press: A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

Which is based on this site: http://www.alifta.net/Default.aspx

Which I can't read, so I can't confirm :sorry1:

 

[dust1n]

Sunstone are you telling me that most Western women do not loathe to be introduced to exes?

I use this as a filter for determining who is mature enough to act like a responsible adult and trusting of me if they are willing to meet my exes.

I've never minded meeting exes myself.

 

[Meow Mix]

Here's another one I randomly found on that site, highlighted by me for your pleasure:

http://www.alifta.net/Search/Result...archkeyword=119111109101110#firstKeyWordFound

Trade Partnerships with Non-Muslims

Fatwa no. 5855

Q: We live in Australia, a country that clearly admits its secular identity that secures freedom of religion and atheism; nevertheless, the broadcast media, whether television or radio, is clothed in the garb of Judo-Christian values. A simple observer can easily see this. The proportion of Muslims to other inhabitants of the country is one to thirty two. We, as Muslims, sometimes have to go to their centers, their places of worship, and attend funerals of friends or officials, and similar cases needed due to work conditions and responsibilities. Sometimes, a non-Muslim may come to our houses and eat with us. Sometimes, they ask us to allow them to see inside our Masjids (mosques) and enter them. ( Part No : 2, Page No:98) (Of course, while respecting the Islamic relevant etiquette, like their taking off their shoes or wearing head scarves by women ). So what is the ruling of Shari‘ah (Islamic law) on the following:

1- Entering a non-Muslim's house.
2- Attending their religious ceremonies.
3- Entering into trade partnership with them.
4- Entertaining them.
5- Their coming to our places of worship.
6- May they deliver speeches in our Masjids?
7- May they deliver a speech in our celebrations in the lecture room outside the Masjid?
8- Is it permissible for us to meet them ( Jews or Christians) in general gatherings organized by the Australian state or any of the governmental institutions where each party delivers a speech on religious issues like (Peace in Religions), (Mercy in Religions), (The Meaning of Worship in Religions) etc.?
A:

First: It is permissible to go to the non-Muslims’ houses to reconcile their hearts, advise, and guide them and for similar good purposes, but not out of closeness and alliance. ( Part No : 2, Page No:99)

Second: It is not permissible to attend the non-Muslims’ religious ceremonies because this is an implicit recognition, acceptance, and reverence of their rites. Also, attending their religious rites and ceremonies helps them appear larger in number.
Third: It is permissible to enter into a partnership with non-Muslims in lawful business, if the Muslim is sure he will not be cheated, or get involved in unlawful dealings like Riba (usury or interest), gambling, or Gharar sale (aleatory sale involving risk and uncertainty), or similar unlawful transactions. However avoiding entering into a business partnership with the non-Muslims is better and more preferable for a Muslim to avoid suspicion and risk.
Fourth: It is permissible to allow the non-Muslims to visit our houses provided there is no temptation and the sanctity of the family is protected. As this may reconcile their hearts and make them receive guidance and advice. Perhaps, they may see in Muslims’ hospitality and kindness to their guests as well as the Islamic manners of visiting how tolerant Islam is and consequently, accept the advice and may profess Islam eventually. Allah (Exalted be He) says (what means):

Surah Al-Mumtahanah, 60: 8​

<A style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" id=ContentAnchor class=Mofty name=ContentAnchor target=_blank>Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.​

Surah Al-Mumtahanah, 60: 9​

It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers - those who disobey Allâh).​

Fifth: Non-Muslims should not enter Al-Masjid Al-Haram (The Sacred Mosque in Makkah) nor the Sanctuary of Makkah. ( Part No : 2, Page No:100) Also, it is not permissible for Muslims to allow them to enter it. However, it is permissible for Muslims to allow non-Muslims entry into other places of worship to listen to sermons and lectures on Islam. Perhaps Allah will develop intimacy between us and them, soften their hearts, and guide them to repentance. Indeed, Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sixth and seventh: It is not permissible to allow them to deliver speeches or give lectures in the Masjids (mosques) because they may raise doubts about Islam, show their disbelief in Allah, or try to gain prestige in the eyes of the attendees which may cause great mischief and corruption. Likewise, it is not permissible to allow them to deliver speeches or lectures in our gatherings and Islamic celebrations for the same reasons previously mentioned.
Eighth: It is permissible to meet non-Muslims in public places established by the state for public debates, seminars, lectures on religious issues provided that the Muslim scholars elaborate on the ‘Aqidah (creed), pillars and manners of Islam removing the doubts raised and refuting the false defaming views that may be voiced against Islam by some attendees professing other faiths. This way they will be defending the Truth. As for Muslims who are feared to be tempted away from their religion, either because of their ignorance, or their frail faith, or their lack of knowledge about Islam, it is not permissible for them to attend these gatherings to protect them from the bad influence of the suspicions and doubts raised by opponents of Islam.

 

[Meow Mix]

It's interesting to me how it says Muslims shouldn't enter non-Muslim homes out of alliance and should be wary of them, but then says they should let non-Muslims into their own homes so that they might see their hospitality...

 

[Father Heathen]

I guess it just goes to show that religion is undoubtedly psychologically unhealthy.

 

[Caladan]

I guess it just goes to show that religion is undoubtedly psychologically unhealthy.

These are very difficult times to have a religion, no doubt, with the changes of the last coupe of hundreds years, all religious beliefs have virtually became obsolete.

 

[beenie]

wow. this thread has taken some interesting turns, lol. i have to reread and see if i can add anything useful. haha

Thank you.

you're welcome; you posed a valid question.

Would that not be in direct conflict with Jesus?
I mean, Jesus went to great lengths to be amongst the sinners.

However, I agree that context may very well reveal a lot.
I appreciate your taking the time to look into it.

yes, it would be...and that's why i'm trying (albeit not successfully at this point) to find out what it means. Muslims consider Jesus as one of our best teachers, so i am intrigued as well. i'll post what i find.

 

[Autodidact]

I have been observing how Everyone is taking things the other way round regarding the fatwas.

Firstly, the fatwas are for only Muslims to follow, and the lack of deeper understanding is quite evident from the posts on this thread. For non-muslims who are not even aware of the roots of the religion, cannot even relate or be expected to understand what the religion has to say, that THAT clearly POINTS out the 'limitation of friendship' between a muslim and a non-muslim.

When the other side does not even know and understand the major or basic principles of one's belief, practices and life style, how can they be a good friend when there is a grave difference of mutual understanding. Friendship will be there, but it will be limited between a practising muslim and a practising non-muslim becuase they wont be able to find much common grounds between their way of thinking and living.

All other things will happen ,like helping them out in need, greetings, a nice chitchat and reaching out, but when you cannot do most things together, you dont really become very good friends, and the reason is the difference of common grounds and common practices. e.g Muslims are not to go to dance clubs/ parties and places where alcohol/ nudity etc is the rage, and non-muslims usually look to socialize or enjoy within that circle. You could be friends with them from a univ. or your neighbourhood and you can also study together but if you are a practising muslim you wont be interested in going to clubs, concerts and parties with them. There are offcorse muslims who do that, but they arent practising muslims, so there.

That's really sad, and confirms my impression that Islam is completely, totally and utterly wrong.

 

[Sahar]

That's really sad, and confirms my impression that Islam is completely, totally and utterly wrong.

This can't be a bad thing at all, believe me.

 

[Sahar]

I might love one specific woman, but I am still a man, to deny myself that would mean I cannot be the man my woman deserves.

So you have to lust after other women to be the man your woman deserves? Hmmm...interesting notion. But I have to tell you this has nothing to do with being healthy. If anything it constitutes lack of faithfulness to your wife/woman. Actually this gives me more reasons to say that hijab protect women from being treated as sexual objects and from being reduced to be a source of pleasure for men. I don't wear clothes, talk, walk and move in the society to please some men, sorry.

 

[Caladan]

So you have to lust after other women to be the man your woman deserves? Hmmm...interesting notion. But I have to tell you this has nothing to do with being healthy. If anything it constitutes lack of faithfulness to your wife/woman. Actually this gives me more reasons to say that hijab protect women from being treated as sexual objects and reduced to be a source for pleasure of men. I don't wear clothes, talk, walk and move in the society to please some men, sorry.

the problem with your Deen is that it denies the very basic and primal nature of men and women. it is no wonder Muslim women are suffering from honor killings, discrimination, and oppression.
btw, I have never said anything about 'lusting', I have commented that as a man it is perfectly natural for me to appreciate a good looking woman, and any man who ever tries to repress that, is no longer a man.

 

[Sahar]

the problem with your Deen is that it denies the very basic and primal nature of men and women. it is no wonder Muslim women are suffering from honor killings, discrimination, and oppression.
btw, I have never said anything about 'lusting', I have commented that as a man it is perfectly natural for me to appreciate a good looking woman, and any man who ever tries to repress that, is no longer a man.

Oh, yeah you were only commenting on the sexy part. Sexy has nothing to do with lust?! The very basic nature of men that you're talking about has nothing to do with lust?!
If you were happy and satisfied with your marriage/relationship with the woman you love, and if you don't enjoy the "sexiness" of other women at the same time, it would still mean your manhood is repressed? I believe such person would be a faithful man not a man with repressed desires.

 

[Caladan]

Oh, yeah you were only commenting on the sexy part. Sexy has nothing to do with lust?! The very basic nature of men that you're talking about has nothing to do with lust?!

Seriously your mind is so wrapped around religious dogma, that the natural concept of the good feeing a man get from having a lovely looking woman standing beside him or talking to him is strange to you.

If you were happy and satisfied with your marriage/relationship with the woman you love, and if you don't enjoy the "sexiness" of other women at the same time, it would still mean your manhood is repressed? I believe such person would be a faithful man not a man with repressed desires.

ah more self righteousness. any woman who wants to repress her man really does deserve an honor killing.

 

[Sahar]

Seriously your mind is so wrapped around religious dogma, that the natural concept of the good feeing a man get from having a lovely looking woman standing beside him or talking to him is strange to you.

ah more self righteousness. any woman who wants to repress her man really does deserve an honor killing.

What the ? :areyoucra :areyoucra

 

[Rainbow Mage]

TAKING FLOWERS TO THE SICK:

_ "This practice is impermissible as it entails wasting money on non-useful purposes and imitating Allah's adversaries in this custom."

Oh boy. Throw the Quran out the window, it specifically says to be kind to the sick.

CINEMAS:

_ "It is not permissible for a Muslim to build a cinema, or run it for himself or for another person, due to the forbidden kinds of amusement it provides. As shown today around the globe, it presents obscene scenes and images that provoke desires and promote lewdness and immorality. Furthermore, it helps women mix with men who are not Mahram (spouse or unmarriageable relatives)."

No let's not have any fun in life. That's forbidden, even though the Quran says the religion of Allah is not overbearing or hard.:sarcastic

SWIMMING POOLS:

_ "The mingling of boys and girls in studying is Haram (prohibited). The same applies to showering and swimming while naked (or semi naked) in a swimming pool, whether they are young or old, for the Fitnah (sedition) occurring due to this, and for seeing each others' 'Awrah' (private parts of the body that must be covered in public), this is also considered a means to mischief and evil."

I seriously doubt little children are focusing on private parts and nakedness of their friends.

RELATIONS WITH NON-MUSLIMS:

"A Muslim should not begin greeting the non-Muslims. However, when the Jews, Christians, or others offer Salam (greetings), he should reply "Wa `Alaykum" (the same to you) ... These are some of the rights the non-Muslims have on Muslims. This also includes the right of being a good neighbor. You must not harm your non-Muslim neighbors. You should give them charity if they are needy."

"It is not permissible for a Muslim to follow the funeral of a Kafir (disbeliever), for this is considered an act of loyalty to them which is Haram (prohibited). However, consoling them is acceptable."

"Relationships based on mutual affection, love and brotherhood between a Muslim and a Kafir are prohibited. It might render a Muslim as a Kafir. There is nothing wrong, however, if the kind of relationship developed between the Muslim and Kafir does not go beyond selling and buying or accepting the Kafir's invitation to have lawful food with him or accepting a lawful present, provided that no harm is done to the Muslim's faith."

[/QUOTE]

This is total nonsense. Muhammad even greeted Pagans with the salaam, if they wished him salaam first. The Quran tells Muslims to ask the Jews and Christians if they are in doubt about what the Quran reveals, so being totally removed from the friendship of non-Muslims is also nonsense.

Let's face the real facts. Saudi approved fatwas are purely political.